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09 January 2010
[A simple but witty muslim with a computer ID of "goldenhawk786" arrives in the den of Atheists and opens himself for debate. The resulting exchange is extremely entertaining as well as educational.]
[ This text had been edited to include only the essential comments written by goldenhawk786. Some partial posts made by atheists are also given. To read the full debate, please see the Reason Project website by Sam Harris.]
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goldenhawk786 wrote on 09 January 2010:
Hello guys. I am a muslim and you can ask me any question on Islam and I will happily provide you with an answer if i can. I dont know everything but i will try my best
I will NOT ignore any reasonable questions from you, and will reply to all of you.
[ All replies in bold]
W. Collins:
Title: Questions for goldenhawk786
I have some questions.
Questions for goldenhawk786:
Why is the Quran any more credible than The Old Testament, The New Testament, Talmud, Bhagavad Gita, or Upanishads?
Because the rest of the scriptures you have mentioned are not compatible with science. Islam, I believe is the only religion which TRUE SCIENCE cannot refute. I can give you plenty of examples if our conversation progreses.
Why is Allah any more believable than Jesus, Yahweh, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl, or fairies?
Same answer to my first reply. But I can elaborate further if required.
How do you justify criticizing us (quite vehemently I might add) for not believing in your religion and worshiping your god when there’s thousands of religions you don’t practice and thousands of gods you don’t worship?
For me, the other religions are either man made, curropted by man from the original teachings or not reasonable.
Do you believe everything the Quran says?
Yes, I do
If so, do you believe this passage below to be true?
86:6-7 man was created from ejected liquid- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs
Obviously I do. The verse of the rib actually reads as follows in Arabic [ From between Al sulb and Taraaib]. The two words are difficult to comprehend in Arabic let alone to translate accurately.
Sulb generally refers to the hip and strong muscles of the back. While taraaib refers to the ribs as far as I know.
Now, from embryological point of view, the gonads, i.e. testicles in males and ovaries in females differentiate first at the level of the second lumbar vertebra. This is a scientific fact that is not known to most people even today, let alone fourteen centuries ago.
With the development of the embryo, the gonads follow different developmental stages in both sexes. In girls, the ovaries folow shorter journey, descend gently to hang outside the uterus and stay there all life. In boys the testicles follow longer journey, descend gently towards the scrotum, until they get squeezed through the inguinal canal at the bottom of the belly, in oblique manner and rest inside the scrotum just a few days before birth. It is not unusual that the descending of the testicles inside the scrotum get arrested at earlier stage, which predisposes the boy to testicular cancer around puberty.
Now if we put this scientific fact which is only known to doctors, in the context of the above verse, we find that the Qur’an is pointing out to the exact location where both the testicles and ovaries are originally developed in the embryo, the future adult human. It is these two organs that later produce the sperms and ovums that create new human.They develop at the level of the second lumber vertebra which is mid way between the Sulb and Taraaib, even though their later positioning in the adult human gives the wrong impression of their embryological origin. This fact could not have been guessed at the time of the Qur’an.
Anyone else feel free to ask some questions. Mister goldenhawk says he’s ready for some inquiries.
arbiter
Great thread idea! This is going to be interesting. Yes goldenhawk786, please enlighten us, we are dying to hear the wisdom of your council.
Here’s another question:
Who wrote the Koran—not inspired or divined it (Allah)—but who actually wrote the book? Muhammad was illiterate was he not, so it could not have been him?
GH: Well if knew you anything about Islamic history, it was his faithfull companions who wrote everything down and later on, it was compiled in a book format.
As for Muhammad (S), again you need to study. When talking about the trem “ililterate”, this means that he was not educated by anyone on this planet. No school or university ect…
Thats why the people at the time could not understand and it was a miracle in itself. Meaning that how can person who has not been educated by someone can possibly know all the stuff he was preaching, especially the scientific facts such as the bing bang which only science has discovered recently but Islam was preaching this 1400 years ago.
Josh
We are critical thinkers, and we have questions.
I have one for you…..why is your allegedly all-powerful Allah, according to your book, so insecure about whether or not I believe he exists? The last time I checked, Big Foot has not reserved garments of fire for me in hell, simply for doubting his existence.
GH: This is nothing about insecurity. Allah clearly mentions in the Quran that there is no compulsion in religion. Also he states that “let him who wants to believe and let him who wishes not disbelieve. Just because you reject god, doesnt make his glory any less. its yoour loss in this life and in the hereafter.
Just becuase if you dont beleive in any particular object, doesnt make the object less valuable does it?
eudemonia:
I have posted 2 links discussing Islam and science. Apparently hawk is ignoring them and /or exercising his confirmation bias.
How can I be ignoring you when I dont know what you have posted? This is the first I am hearing of it. Please don’t assume. Just ask. Thats not difficult to do is it?
Wcollins260. The quran is not a story book for children where you can pick up from anywhere and assume any verse to your own understanding. It’s much ore than it, but if you are delibrately want to pick out faults with it, then you can do that with anyone or anything. You should ask for learning or understanding, not to just pick fights or arguments for no reason.
Josh :
but if I disbelieve, I will have boiling fluid poured on my head, while wearing a garment of fire, watching my skin melt away (Quran 22:19-20).....waiting for it to be exchanged for fresh new skin, so the skin-melting process can begin all over again (4:56). But hey, I’m sure it’s not ALL bad…..at least they’ll give me boiling water to drink if I get thirsty (6:70).
The same Allah who promises that the aforementioned is in my future if I disbelieve…..according to your book, also says that there is “no compulsion”. This is roughly tantamount to a robber pointing a loaded gun at your head, saying something like…“if you don’t give me all your money, I will kill you. But hey….there is no compulsion here. You don’t have to give me all your money if you don’t want to. You do have a choice.”
Believe in your god, or be tortured forever…..what the HELL kind of choice is that?
The answer to your question is tha there is no compulsion in this life. Basically i cannot force you to become muslim. thats up to you. if you dont become muslim then i cant force you. tis your choice. are we at least clear on this point ?
Okay, so you cannot personally force me to believe as you do. I appreciate that. This at least sets you apart from so many other Muslims, Christians, etc. throughout the past handful of centuries who thought that they COULD. Thank you for being one of many Muslims who HAVE finally caught up with the rest of the civilized world. I trust that you will not be participating in any violent, deadly riots over any Danish cartoon pictures, like so many of your counterparts have. I also trust that the concept of “honor killing” sickens you to your stomach, as much as it sickens me. But I digress….
Well the truth is, MOST muslim clerics dont know what true Islam is. as the saying goes, half a knowledge is dangerous knowledge. I haven’t cought up with the rest of the world. i believe the rest of the world has caught up with the me. As for the danish cartoons, of course it upsets me. i take my religion very seriously, however i dont beleive that killing innocent people is what islam is teaching. i totally condemn this kind of thinking. Same goes for the “honor killings” you talk about. i am against this also as it does shock me when i hear these kind of stories. but this is not done just by muslims. this kind of act is done by other religions also such as hinduism etc…. i am not saying alll this so you can be pleased with me. i am speaking the truth regardless.
arbiter:
Here’s something to consider:
How do we know his “faithful companions” were free of corruption? How do we know what they wrote corresponds to what Muhammad actually said, he could not proofread now could he? How do we know that the Koran has not been changed, edited, and/or corrupted after these wise men died? If Muhammad died in the 7th century, all of his contemporary “faithful companions” must have died in that century as well. So how do we know that from the 7th century to the present, that no corrupt person or people with lots of power did not change what was written in the Koran? Do you honestly believe that the minds of men are so pure that they would not alter such a powerful book for their own purposes were they given the opportunity? You say I do not know Islamic history and I would retort that you appear unaware of human history. Please answer these questions or at least ponder them from time to time.
The faithful companions were free from curroption becuase Allah has told us in the Quran. The quran was revealed in stages (over a peroid of 23 years) and when the verses were sent down, the were all verified by the holy prophet muhamad (S) himself. the companions would not alter the quran because they fought tooth and nail to defend this message and gave up everyithng they had to protect god’s word. Its true that the companions died but the quran what we have today is the same one from the 7th century. this is because it cant be compared word for word from the 7th quran which is in the muesum.
As to your reference to Muhammad being educated outside this planet and rudimentary schooling was unnecessary, one could make the same argument for Joseph Smith the founder of Moronism or Fred Phelps the “only” person alive today with the “real” understanding of god.
This would be true if he actually was a prophet of god
It was the soloution for mankinds problems and the scientific miracles of the quran which sceince is only accpeting today such as the big bang that made people to convert. even the “thinkers” of today’s western world is converting to islam. even sceientists themsevles. dont tell me that they are stupid people or dont know what they are doing. i am talking about the elite of the west. its because they are sincere people. not brainwashed and want to know the truth. thats what i believe. I give you some examples below.
Western Judges who converted to Islam. Here is one example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Niud2MHDXrc&feature=related
Maths Professor who converted to Islam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5P6iwgbey4&feature=related
Female Professor of Neuroscience converts to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtSnn974cik
eucaryote:
Thanks goldenhawk,
This is what I want to know.
Is is possible to falsify your beliefs? If so,What would falsify your beliefs?
If you can prove to me that Islam is wrong, then yes, i would have to leave it because i can’t lie to myself can i? there is no point. i am open minded and am willing to listen to what you guys say and think abuo tthe stuff. i may not know all the answers but at least i can reflect upon your queries. hope that answers the question sir.
Is it possible for you to lose your beliefs? If so what would cause you to lose your beliefs?
Yes you can lose your beliefs. they can get stronger or weaker or simply not to beleive in them anymore. Allah has said so in the quran that people have turned to disbelief after beleiving. hope that answers your question.
Josh:
Thanks, goldenhawk. I just wanted to see if you were as intellectually honest as I am. Sounds like you are. I’m glad to hear it.
I’ll also admit that if you were to prove Islam to be right, beyond any reasonable doubt, then I would be on board with your beliefs as well. I cannot lie to myself any more than you can.
I appreciate your civility, goldenhawk. If we could just get the rest of the world to be as classy and civil as we are, and if we could all just get along, despite our differences….......oh well, that probably won’t happen in our lifetimes.
I really wish there were more people like you. In fact beleive it or not, i respect you more than some muslims i have known. i would have no problem with you if you were my neighbour and i would treat you with respect and dignity. i agree with your last sentence that it wont happen in our liftimes. thats the real shame. going to bed now. good night
[# By this time the debate was really over. The Atheists should have thrown in the towel and conceded to the muslim. But no. Some people just dont know when the fight is over. For such humilitation is destiny...]
W. Collins:
But what would it take exactly?If someone found human bones in the Jurassic era, I would stop believing in evolution; what would it take for you? to drop your beliefs.
Well if evolution would be proven to be a fact then, i would drop my belief in islam. then there is no point living in denial is there? other muslims may still carry on, but i wont live a lie and deceive myself for the rest of my life. incidently they have found a human footprint dating back to approx 1.5 million years old. cleick on the link below. anyway hope that answers your question.
http://us1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/12942/1,5_MILLION_YEAR_OLD_FOOTPRINTS_IS_A_BRAND_NEW,_SHOCKING,_SEVERE_BLOW_TO_THE_IMAGINARY_EVOLUTION
Who is Harun Yahya?
See . . . http://www.mukto-mona.com/debunk/harun_yahya/index.htm
That stuff about harun yayha is a lie. i have read that post and i have even emailed the relelvent sources to verify and the reply i have been given is that harun yahya was clearred of ALL charges in turkey and had nothing to do with the charges bought against him.
If that were the case you would never have been a believer to begin with. Do some research, learn what, exactly, the theory of evolution is before dismissing it. There’s tons and tons of evidence and evolution has been witnessed. We’ve turned wolves into Chihuahuas in just thousands of years. We witness single cell organisms evolve into different species all of the time.
first of all, if there were tons and tons of “evidence” for evolution, it would not be claseed as a theory any more would it? secondly i believe in adaptation, not evolution. two seperate things altogether.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation
Like i said, i believe in adaptation, thats completly seprate fronm evolution. what you have descireb above is not evolution. can you sohw me just ONE example of a evolutionary process where there is a INCREASE on information in the DNA code? if you did then i would concede and give you this point.
I think that you actually set your bar a little low though. All that you have to do to lose your faith is to study modern biology.The theory of evolution by natural selection is a fact and the scientific evidence of that is widely available. It’s not possible to understand modern biology without understanding the concept of natural selection. Like other scientific theories, and other simple facts, the proof of it does not rely on your “belief”.
Well even in your own statement, you have mentioned its a theory, yet you are saying it’s a fact in the same sentence. please make up you mind. is it a fact or still a theory?
Well if you would read up on modern biology, it is actually disproving evolution. you want some quotes from modent western scientists who are experts in the field of mobern biology telling you that evolution is not possible ? i can you plenty of statements mof scienttists who are agaisnt evloution. even richard dawkins has changed his mind on a recent video about the origin of life.you should read up about it.
nonverbal:
What would be your standard of proof? The sort of proof accepted in a court of law? Some sort of mathematical proof? Or are you playing around with words by referring to scientific legitimacy as being “proof” of anything? Sorry, but I doubt your honesty. Evolutionary theory is a complex matrix of understanding about the natural world—not a lofty or hopeful stab at how things might work. Biologists know how certain things work, period. We’re talking about knowledge here, not guesswork. The difference is enormous, and you are being disingenuous with us. I think you’re lying when you say you’d go apostasy upon finding proof of evolution, as you’re probably well aware of Popper’s take on the matter of scientific proof.
If I’m mistaken, then I apologize for having overestimated your awareness.
My standard of proof would be to convince me. look guys, i am not programmed to beleive in my relgion. i chose it becuase it makes more sense to me than anything else. i belive that science cannot challenge it in anyway. if it could then please enlighten me. tell me why islam is so bad for me. i am willingto listen to you all. also please note that i am not a scientist nor am i an expert on islam . also what would help my understaing on evolution is that if ALL the scientists would agree that evoluton is a fact. scientists themselves are split on this? are you guys actually telling me that those scientists who DO NOT beleive in evolution are bad scientists? please answer this if you can.
W. Collins:
I don’t expect you to take scientific studies seriously though. That would require removing your blinders and I know your not quite willing to do that yet.
wel i am being honest ok. i dont know everyithng abot islam and evolution. i have never claimed to know everything. i want to learn and share opinions. thats why we are here on this forum isnt it ?
Quote from the top of pretty much every page in this forum:
The Reason Project is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit foundation devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values in society.
i dont have a problem with the first bit. as fas the secular bit is concerned, well it looks like it’s not owkring in thid day and age is it ?
Secularism has worked pretty damn well in the USA and much of the Western world, actually.
I dont think it has dear. you only need to look at the statistics about secular society. it is in meltdown with so many problems in the west from drinking, gambling, murder, rape…the list can on and on.
but if you look at early islamic history from INDEPENDENT sources, then you will realise that peace and harmony was at its peak while crime levels were at it’s lowest. so dont you come here and start changing facts !
W. Collins:
Learn what, exactly, a theory is before trying to dismiss something by saying “It’s just a theory.”
ok let’s suppose your right, then if evolution is fact as you claim it is, then ALL scientists should beleive in it and reject the idea of god. or do you consider that those scientists who beelive in god and reject evolution are bad scientists ?
Something like 95% of scientists believe in evolution*, (and, interestingly, the amount of scientists who reject god increases with age). Anyways, I would not say someone is a bad scientist if they believe in god. They are certainly terrible scientists if they don’t believe in evolution, however (the vast majority do). But, if some scientist wants to believe in god that’s fine with me, as long as he doesn’t let his irrational beliefs corrupt his research. And many faithful scientists are very good at keeping god out of their experiments.
*A 1991 Gallup poll of Americans found that about 5% of scientists (including those with training outside biology) identified themselves as creationists.
And that’s America. The amount of “creationist scientists” (oxymoron) in other countries will likely be much lower.
You have to remove your blinders to learn my friend. Please go visit a museum and look at all of the fossils that support evolution. Ask yourself, “Why do whales have hip bones?”, “Why do some snakes have pelvises?”, “Why is there even any such thing as a flightless bird?”, “Why is the human body (and other animals’ bodies) rife with seemingly stupid mistakes?”, “Why do we even have sea mammals?”, “Why is 99% of all of the species of life that ever walked on this planet now extinct?”
firstly, Can you show me were you got that 95% figure from? please provie it to me. post me a link becuase i think we BOTH know thats not the true figure. actually if you look at some scientists, they are rejecting evolution but they dont belive in god yet, but they do say that the evolution is not possible. what do you have to say to those scientists? talking rubbish ?
secondly, lets suppose you are right and for the sake or argument, only one scientist in the world says he rejects the evolution theory, would you dissmiss that scientist?
the animals you have mentioned, and i can name a few more, they have existed for millions of years. there no different now than they were millions of years ago.
well i can show you plenty of fossil samples which destory the theory of evolution. why are you looking at it from only one angle ? why not look at both sides of the story before making baised statements ?
95% figure?
I have to question whether you’re really interested, because it takes approximately 3.6 seconds to find this information.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm
well i am sure i have given you more than 3.6 seconds and i am still waiting on this 95% figure. thanks
W. Collins:
Um, I did tell you where I got that 95 percent from, Gallup Polls. It is the true figure, Gallup has a very good reputation. Sorry if you don’t like the figures, but that doesn’t mean they’re not true. And why do you bother pointing out that a few scientists that support your claim? Given your tendency to use argumentum ad populum, I find it ironic that you try to form an argument by saying a few scientists agree with you.
Here’s the site that the gallup poll information came from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution
I am sorry but i have been to that “reputable site” and have still not found the 95% figure you gave me. Also the evolution question asked to the people is broken down to three beliefs about evolution. you really should look at that site again. anyway back to my main question, Please show me where you have claimed that 95% of scientists beiieve in evolution or just admit you have made a mistake. nothing woring with making mistakes now is there ?
I didn’t say wikipedia was a reputable site. Gallup is a reputable source for polling information. Besides, SkepticX has already shown you to the same information.
Nice try. But i am not falling for it. you said 95% percent of scientists beleive in evolution. just show me any site were this is true. drop your ego and say you messed up on this one, or is it your arrogant attidue preventing you from doing this ?
I think I have located the error.
Recent polls suggest that about 33% of OVERALL scientists believe in God.
The National Academy Of Science poll shows that 7% of these top or leading scientists believe in God.
That’s where the 95, or more correctly 92% figure may be coming from.
Still that should tell us all something. Concerning The best and brightest scientists of them all, 9 out of 10 are NONbelievers.
"33% of OVERALL scientists believe in God"
Different issue.
The data that shows only 5% of scientists are creationists and the rest are evolutionists, theistic or otherwise, makes it pretty clear.
So you do accept that 7% of the top scientists dont beleive in evolution right? Why dont they beleive in it? according to you, it’s an open shut case full of facts with in-disputable evidence? so you saying tat these 7% of top scientists are just looneys ?
I consider their opinion, but I think that people who deny evolution do it because of religion, and/or they do it out of arrogance (Surely such a splendid thing as a human is not related to a frog).
Well do you have one example where the scientists are not beleiving in evolution becuase of arrogance ?
I do consider the opinion of the minority and I look at the evidence and make my own decision, and the evidence points to evolution. Evolution does not care if people believe in it, it will exist either way (unlike some things).
Well i can say the same thing about Islam. I can say that Allah’s glory will no be diminished just because you dont beleive in him, he will exist forever to (unlike other things).
W. Collins:
You said: "Well do you have one example where the scientists are not beleiving in evolution becuase of arrogance ?"
No. I said I think that’s how they feel. It was conjecture and I made that clear.
well lets not talk about conjecture when talking about these scientists. lets talk about facts. if in doubt ask them. incidently i asked one scientist who beleived in god and i asked him the reason for it. he basically said that he was 100% convinced that evolution is not true and he also told me, that was based on his evidence and facts and not to do with his faith. what do you have to say about that ?
Wow. You found one scientist who didn’t believe in evolution. Yawn. Like I said, evolution does not care if people believe in it. I’m sure it had nothing to do with his faith, I sure his favored explanation for life had nothing to do with god. Was this “scientist” a Muslim by any chance?
No he wasnt of the muslim faith. he was a an white englishman living in manchester, UK. he does not beleive in christianity or islam but he said he did belieive in god. anyway, does this make him a bad scientist for rejecting evolution ?
Yes, in my opinion. I don’t know how anyone could deny evolution if you look at the evidence. He probably let his irrational beliefs in the supernatural cloud reality.
So now you are judgeing him? who are you to judge? who gave you the authority? just because he didnt dance to your tune, doesnt make him any less of a scientist than those ape scientists whom you revere.
Apparently Allah gave me the right to judge him; he gave us free will right?
Very funny monkey boy, but answer the question
Ok, so the question is: So now you are judgeing him? who are you to judge? who gave you the authority?
Question one: Yes, I am judging him. Question two: I am just a man. Question three: You specifically gave me that authority. Can’t you remember what you wrote just a few minutes ago? Here you are clearly requesting to hear my opinion. Asking for my opinion again. You asked for my opinion, and I gave it to you. Don’t ask a question and then bitch about my answer.
but your answer is only conjecture. i was hoping something more from an athiestbigredfutbol:
Of course you can judge him. If a scientist demonstrates that he has a piss-poor understanding of a branch of science, I think that’s something you can judge. If a professional muscian turned out to be unable to properly tune an instrument, I would judge him or her as a poor musician. If a plumber came to my house and couldn’t figure out how to fix something simple like a leaky faucet, I would judge him or her as a poor plumber.
And so on.
i am sorry, but i dont entirly agree. you can only be in a position to judge a scientist if you have more or less the same equal understing on that field on which that scientist specializes in.
Was that scientist a biologist? Because if not, then under your logic he has no right to criticize biologists.yes he was. he was a micro-biologist
W. Collins:
So Goldenhawk, here’s a question, expanding on one of bigredfutbol’s analogies. You hire a licensed plumber to fix your sink, he comes over does the job, you pay him and he leaves. Two hours later water is gushing from under you sink, ruining your brand new hardwood floor. Are you claiming you would be unable to to judge this plumber’s performance as a plumber because you have never taken the plumbing test and gotten your plumbing license?
sorry that example does not fit here and you know it. nice try though.
anyway, here at UK time, its sleep time so talk to you all later. bye
[Later: goodgraydrab makes comment that religion preach Adam and Eve created 10,000 years ago ]
@ goodgraydrab…what utter rubbish you say. go and learn about islam properly before you TIHNK you can critise it with half of the information.
goodgraydrab:
Question for Muhawk:
What’s your position regarding all babies are born Muslim, it is just teaching them otherwise that makes them non-Muslim, as opposed to all babies are born without religious belief for which Islam is just one of all the choices available that must be taught to them? [Put your thinking cap on]
I dont think you understand the word “muslim” do you? this means that god has created the baby is submitting to god’s will. this means that all babies are pure and if left alone, they will automatically conclude that there must be a god (or an intelligent designer, as you guys like to call it) and will come on the path of islam and will start to worship is creator. i know this will be to much for you as this argument goes deep and required much understanding, but i feel it will be of no use to you due to your prejuice and narrow minded view on islam.
Babies will automatically conclude that there must be a god? Can you offer some evidence to this effect?
well i dont know what “evidence” will be acceptable to you monkeys
Burt:
Your English is not very good here so I’ll try to rephrase your comment: God creates the newborn infant (a process that started in the womb) and being completely innocent and helpless it is in a state of complete submission to God’s will. As they develop a sense of self and identity they will automatically conclude that a creator exists and come to worship this creator and to the path of Islam. I think this is a reasonable statement of your claim. Where it goes wrong is assuming this will lead them directly to Islam (assuming, of course, no external intervention by parents and so on to direct them to other religions). Historically, Islam was a very late religion to appear so all those earlier babies grew into adults who worshiped deities in ways other than specified by Islam. Indeed, they started out worshiping trees, rocks, the sky, the sun and moon, animal spirits, and all sorts of other creatures. So that’s one thing. Now the next thing is that this is a very natural consequence of the way that the mind operates, based as it is in a brain that functions on pattern recognition and has a very poor ability to separate random correlation from causality. I recommend doing a web search on the term “cognitive illusions.”
Now, this doesn’t invalidate some claims of Islam or other religions, you have an out in asserting that this evolutionary process has been a process of humanity discovering deity and pointing to the evolutionary development of religions in what you can try to demonstrate is a progressive sequence. Of course, that leaves you in danger of having to admit that later religions might come along that are closer realizations of the divine than is Islam so you probably don’t want to go there. But at the end, you’re left with the assertion of the existence of God which can neither be demonstrated nor disproved but has to be taken as a matter of faith. And when you get to that point, you might come to realize that just about everything else int any religion is culturally relative and hence, in a real sense, open to modification as cultures develop and change.
Well rephrased on the 1st paragraph. thats what i meant. however, i dont agree with islam as alate religion. it has been always the first, its people changing the true teachings of the prophet of god. thats one of the reason why, i beleive, god sent so many prophets to so many nations, but after time passes, people curropt the teachings. jesus was a muslim so was moses etc…
It seems that you have established the tactic of “hijacking” as the foundation of your Muslim faith.
There should be no contention that the Quran’s compilation was heavily influenced by the Jewish and Christian texts ... you took their god, adopted it as your own and see fit to do their interpreting for them. Islam is founded on the tenet that the Jews and Christians misunderstood the meaning of their own scripture and altered the word of god, thus it is your obligation to bring them back to the ‘straight path’ by persuasion or even by force. I liken this view to hijacking.
I take your view wrong. islam did not take “their god”. islam is the oldest religion on earth. prophet adam (AS) was a muslim. ibraham was a muslim. it was them who got curropted the teachings of islam which neccistated coming of later prophets to restore the true image or god.
W.Collins:
Nice try. I know you like to think that Islam has been around since the earth was created 6,000 years ago, but it’s just not true. There is no Islam without the Mohammad and the Koran, just as there is no Christianity without Jesus and the New Testament. Islam was invented less than 1500 years ago. You might as well claim that Easter Bunnyism is the oldest religion and every one is born believing in the Easter Bunny, until they are taught otherwise or course. Go ahead, try to prove that to be any more ridiculous than what you claim.
By the way, that’s exactly what hijacking is. You are shamelessly trying to steal prophets from other religions for no other reason than extreme arrogance concerning your favorite book of magical fairy tales.
17 January 2010:
this shows your ignorance of islam then.
rays:
I have been reading comments on this Reason Project Forum by the new member goldenhawk786.
His simple posts are revealing a remarkable level of intellect.
But what amazes me is that this intelligence is against expectations:
Although, goldenhawk786 does not appear to be schooled, nevertheless, he has managed to succeed in making most of the so-called learned hide for cover.
There is no cover against common sense.
Goldenhawk is gone—-why are you all still talking about him ? I think we, or maybe just me, managed to get him to see Islam in another way—and that turned him off because he ( hopefully ) started seeing the folly of his beliefs, or maybe I should say what some brain-washer wanted him to believe. Whatever , I hope he keeps on thinking..and questioning the validity and value of that religion, because I hate to see a young man caught in that trap . It was hard to say enough to him, however, because there seemed to be three threads under “Islam” going at the same time.
31 January 2010:
hi guys. sorry for my absence. i was really busy and still am, but quickly wanted to say hello to everyone. have not read all the posts since my long break from here, but as i recall, i was debating with sheba. so i want to carry from there. anyway have to go now and take care everyone (even to the atheists who think they know it all about islam) and will be back soon to answer all your questions regarding the only alternative to mankind, which is islam !
i am still busy and will try to participate at least once a week
rays:
[Sheba said:] “Goldenhawk is gone”.
You wish.
The boy is resilient as well as intelligent. He has managed to handle all you ladies with simplist of logic and coherency.
But some of you “learned” gentlemen are too stupid to recognise the classic time-honoured arguments which he is employing.
Moreover,
From what I read of his posts, he has the balls not to flee the battlefield.
Our member goldenhawk786 is not like the U.S. who, like a woman, jumps in without thinking and then always looking for an “exit”.
Stupid cowboys.
Now,
Sheba, are you “man enough” to stand up to him?
Please learn to face your opponents and not close your eyes and wish its all a dream.
However, there is another option for you:
If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Bit of a shameful exit for a woman.
Also,
Sheba seems to have problems with numbers. I wont say she is dishonest in removing 786 from the quote.
She just has issues.
Perspective. Fine line between courage and stupidity. He has not done himself one favor by appearing here. He has only had his ego bruised and his deluded thought process battered. If you find that having ‘balls’, then that says a lot about your perspective as well.
listen you monkeys…why have you guys got tunnel vision? your very narrow minded. everything i say is either, not carefully considered, are always twisted, taken out of context or simply dissmissed. your replies are signs of desperation. you cant refute my arguments interlectually and just want to pick a fight, not because of the facts but because you feel i dont swing on the same trees as you. your athiest forest is being chopped down slowly but surely by religious humans beings !
[You said:] ‘the only alternative to mankind, which is islam !’
Now, how are we supposed to respond to this? How do we NOT ‘pile on’, as people have called it?
We could scoff, and we could laugh, and we could get as belligerent as we wanted to with this and…...how would any of it NOT be justified?
Dee/Sheba..the balls in your court. Run with it.
is that all you can say? i take it that your monkey brain has not evolved fully
hperk:
Repeatedly comparing us to apes does not change the issue. You can call us Russia if you like. The fact is that the roots of Islam have the potential to move any human being to martyrdom. You know this. This is why you continue to insult others; it is all you have left.
It should also be noted that your writing skills are weak, simple, and underdeveloped—much like string cheese.
Please pardon the poor analogy and write something productive.
well i am not going to call you russia. thats just plain stupid. as for the “martrydom” issue, i am willing to die for God’s cause. you cant say thats wrong. people can be willing do die for whatever they beleive in strongly. me calling you apes is not an insult because you guys accept it. if someone calls me a muslim or human being, why should i get upset about it ?
bigredfutbol:
To be blunt, I don’t care if you want to die for your worthless God. It’s stupid, and wrong, but that’s your problem. The problem is that too many of you think you have the right to kill for him.
listen you silly person. dont say my god is worthless. your pathetic life here in this world is worthless unless you beleive in god. you ahtiests tihnk yur above everyone living on cloud 9. well guess what, you will find out soon when your going to goto hell room number 9. its just a matter for time for you unless you change your ways.
Aaron, Administrator:
In the absence of reason, you’ve got:Insults. Hurt feelings. Baseless superstitious assertions based in religious inculcation. Mmmm….comedy? And, of course, threats. Hey, they worked on baby Goldenhawk when he was just a hawkling. Their impotence in the face of reason is something he just can’t fathom.
aaron, unless you have something better to say or any questions regarding islam, then just keep quiet !
Aaron, Administrator:
Ooh – a command! I wonder where that sense of authority comes from. I’m sure you just wish you were actually entitled to it.
But ya aahnt, Blanche, ya aahnt.
And really, there’s nothing “better” than pointing out the idiotic inanity of responses coming from Allah’s knocked up children.
He called you out on your bullshit. Boo-fucking-hoo.
Sack up or shut up.
Bruce Burleson - 05 February 2010 06:54 PM:
Imagine this world, goldenhawk786. Shiite and Sunni Muslims worship in their mosques according to their faiths. Catholic and Protestant Christians worship in their churches according to their faiths. Reformed and Orthodox Jews worship in their synagogues according to their faiths. Hindus who worship Shiva and those who worship Vishnu do their thing. Buddhists do their thing. Atheists do their non-thing. We all see each other at the Chinese food place on Monday nights, and go to the football game on Friday nights. Everyone is nice to each other and nobody kills anyone. We have our disagreements about doctrine and dogma and the nature of reality, but nobody really gives a shit. What’s wrong with that world?
well i agree. but as long as there is justice administered for the “evil doers” then i dont have a problem with this world you have mentioned.
Well, there’s the rub. If you define “Christians” or “Jews” or “atheists” as “evil doers” by definition, then we have war. Monday nights at the Chinese restaurant is definitely out.
when i am refering to the “evil doers”, i mean anyone commiting evil whether muslim or not.thats the beauty of islam. nobody is above god’s law.
Here’s a point. The world that I described actually exists where I live in central Texas. There are two mosques, one Hindu temple, a Bahai temple, a Jewish synagogue, a Buddhist temple and, of course, many many Christian churches of all sorts of denominations, all within 45 minutes of where I live. Nobody kills anyone (except one of your brothers who killed a bunch of people at Fort Hood, Texas about 20 minutes from where I live). We all eat at the same restaurants all over the county, and attend all sorts of social events together. 99% of the time, religion never enters into it. We just live together. I don’t get pissed off at the Methodists or the Muslims down the street, and they don’t get pissed off at me. I’ve even represented Muslims in law suits. That’s my world.
thats very good and i pleased for you. i sincerely hope tha this area of peace and harmony continues for a long time to come.
If I tried to import this world into Saudi Arabia or any other Muslim country, it wouldn’t work. Muslim and Hindu emigrants have established their houses of worship in Bell County, Texas, but I could not establish a Christian church in Iran or Egypt. Why do you think that is, goldenhawk?
of course it would work. there are many christians and churches operating in the middle east. if islam had no tolerence, then there would be no christian alive today in any muslim country would there ?
Goldenhawk, are you saying that I, a Christian, could immigrate to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Egypt, and start a Christian church there? Be very careful in your answer here, because you could make a fool of yourself.
yes you can set up a church in mulims countires. however, there are execption in certain places such as mecca medina, because these are considered very holy places and only the “purified” may enter those places. i will tell you a little story. you see, although i live in the uk, my background is of pakistan orgin. i recently went to pakistan last year with my family and there is a huge christian communtiy with a massive church living in peace and harmony. this is something which i have witnessed with my own eyes.
also in many others muslim countires, there are many churches and thousands of christians living in peace with the muslim for many centuries.even at the time of the crusades, when tensions were high, but after christians and muslim have been living side by side. all i have said are facts, not opinions. would you like evidence of this ?
I like your attitude, goldenhawk786. If all Muslims had the same attitude - presuming that atheists are included, then things would be much better. For me, what I would like the religious to accept is that the way I am is, (from their point of view), between me and their gods. But they aren’t all like you.
well i try to educate everyone i coe across in regards to tolerance. but there are limits. if you were my neighbour and are an thiest, i wont have a problem with you. but if you delibrately are trying to provoke me into some religous debate, then prepare to defend yourself (i meant interlectually and not physically in case some of you monkeys might be thinking something else). also not all athiests are the same. you get athiests persecuting people who beelive in god. history is full of examples of atheists illing the faithfull.
I would like to be openly critical of religion, but it is frowned on by most, and reacted to with violence by many. If religion is robust, and my “sinning” is between me and “God”, why the need for such reactions? Humans don’t need to punish me. Surely in their opinion “God” will do the punishing, (and not using mobs of humans as “his” agents).
i dont mind critisism. in fact i think it can be sometimes good as it promotes a healthy debate and exchange of ideas. but i wont tolerate someone swearing or insulting my faith. if you want respect, then you must give respect.
You see, I don’t need to fear “God”, because I don’t believe such a thing exists. As far as religion is concerned, I only need to fear humans. Of course the anonymity of a forum such as this makes more open dialogue possible.
well the reason you dont fear god and beleive in him is simply because you have the wrong concept of god. if you truly knew what god really is and wants from his creationg, then i think you could possibly be enlightened.
as for the fear factor you mentioned, well with me, its the opposite of what you are saying. i dont fear humans, i fear allah. what can a human possibly do to me ? kill me ? well i can take that death. what i cant take the god’s punishment on me, if i anger god. that would be a great loss to me.
Questions for Muhawk:
Who are “evil doers”?
those who commit evil crimes ! (doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that one out !)
What is an evil act and who determines that it is?
an evil act is going against the commands of allah. thats where you atheists have it all wrong. you just follow your own morel compass. if it was left to you, this world would be in a right mess. you have no answer to this question. if i lived in your world, i can commit theft, rape, murder, and you wont be able to judge me because i will be following my own “moral” compass. you wont be able to pass any judgement on me because i would simply say that i think what i do is right. you wont be able to refute me because YOU have no universal right or wrong book. according to you evolutionists, might is right. heck, its the survival of the fittest right ?
Have you ever committed an evil act?
is that relevant ?
What happens if you do?
depends on the severity of the crime. some can land me in deep water, some may require just repentence and remorse to the victim and to god.
burt :
You are confusing atheism and relativism. They are not the same. And you are confusing both with evolution. So you have confused a religions position (atheism) with a philosophical position that most atheists (and most philosophers) would reject (moral relativism), with a scientific theory (evolution). And you misunderstand them all. Evolutionary theory, for example, does not support “might is right” and “survival of the fittest” isn’t a real description of evolution. The better phrasing is “Being able to fit increases the likelihood of survival.” Those are very different statements. You are probably thinking of the biological theory of evolution in terms of the long discredited “social Darwinism” of Herbert Spencer, which was popular in Victorian England.
well it does support the idea that this is the only life you have got so make use of it and do what it takes to survive right ? thats why athiests like stalin, when coming to power, took advantage of this ideology. you can say stalin was wrong. he was just trying to fit to increase his survival rate right? you have no right to juege anyone. no atheist can. one mans wrong, is another mans right. how do you decide who is right and who is wrong ?
People began trying to apply the idea that there must be a “fight for survival” among living creatures in nature, and as a result, the idea that “the strong survive, the others are defeated and disappear” began to be applied to human thought and behaviour. When Darwinism’s claim that nature was a place of struggle and conflict began to be applied to human beings and societies, Hitler’s deviation of building a master race, Marx’s claim that “the history of mankind is the history of class struggle,” capitalism’s provision for the “strong growing even stronger at the expense of the weak,” the colonisation of third world countries by such imperialist nations as Britain and their suffering inhuman treatment, together with the fact that coloured people still face racist attacks and discrimination, all found some kind of justification.
Despite his being an evolutionist, Robert Wright, the author of the book “The Moral Animal” summarises the disasters that the theory of evolution has brought to the history of mankind in this way:“Evolutionary theory, after all, has a long and largely sordid history of application to human affairs. After being mingled with political philosophy around the turn of the century to form the vague ideology known as “social Darwinism,” it played into the hands of racists, fascists, and the most heartless sort of capitalists.”
can zen:
history shows us is that Stalinism, Maoism, and other such ideologies obviously did not work, because they did not survive. In other words, those were all bad ideas as far as human relations are concerned. Islam is another failure because it has a very different set of purposes behind it and it does nothing to maximize what are the most common of human needs/desires as posited above.
the reason hitler, stalinism, moasim did not survive is because the overwhelming world it was confronting was religious. thats why it did not survive, otherwise from an athiest point of view, you cannot say they were wrong. they just tried to do what any other non-beleiver would do, that is to survive and kill all that gets in its way. islam is on the increase and people are converting to it from the west. even the “thinkers” of the west like scientists, mathmaticians, judges, all from the west nations convert to islam. if you call that a failure, then i dont know what you would call a success.
@W. Collins...you and the goodygraydrab and classic cases of atheists who have “lost the plot”. you resort to silly immature sarcasm. why cant you have the deceny to fight me on the battleground of reason instead of just throwing coconuts and bananas at a distance from your trees ?
Mmmmmmm….coconuts. I wish I had a coconut right now. Bananas I can do without.
you have a coconut. its attached nicely on you neck. dont like bananas ? well then you are a bad monkey ! too bad our local zoo doesnt have solitary cells, otherwise you would be locked up for a long time until you showed your true ape nature like the rest of these guys here.
goodgraydrab :
Questions for Muhawk:
As a Muslim, do you support the war on terrorism?
before i answer that question, i want you to define what terrorism means to you and please dont quote be george bush.
Do you feel a sense of obligation to work within your country to rid itself of its terrorist elements?
well i could only asnwer this question if you tell me what, according to you, is a terrorist.
W. Collins:
Terrorism is a simple concept Goldenhawk. It’s using violence against civilians (which causes terror) to push a political and/or religious agenda. The World Trade Center was destroyed by a group of Muslims to push their political and religious agenda, and Dr. Tiller was murdered by a Christian man to push his religious and political agenda, both are terrorists.
well according to your definition, then in that case USA is the biggest terrorist ever: it has used violence to push its own political agenda around the world. it arrests civilians, locking them up without charge, Guatanamo Bay, Patriot Act, CIA rendition flights to secret prisons where torture is now official policy, your own vice president Cheney said torture works, and waterboarding is acceptable, US bombs kill thousands of civilians and force them to flee their homes, it attacks other nations and threatens them with war, all this is done to force through US politcial agenda, US armed mercenaries are killing women and children, private security companies like Blackwater kills innocent people in Iraq and in Pakistan, US unmaned drones slaughter wedding parties, US drops nukes on cities knowing full well that civilains will be slaughtered but it does not care because its aim will be fullfilled, US is aiding and abetting Israel in what UN called “war crimes against innocent civilians in Gaza”, it is supporting dictators and tyrants in middle east both past and present, it was supplying Saddam with chemicals to kill Kurds in their thousands, and donald rumsfeld shaking saddams hand. US was using Napalm on Vietnamise civilans, and so on… i can given you entire thread dedicated to US acts of terrorism and atrocities for political agenda, so much that that would make 9/11 terror look like walk in the park… and yet you DARE ONLY CALL MUSLIMS TERRORISTS !!!!
can’t your monkey brain ever figure this out that there is a reason why the US is not signing up to U.N defination of terrorism ? US and israel will never sign up to this because they will be officially the biggest terrorists mankind has ever witnessed and would be forced to give up their terrorist activities.
Rigamortus:
Are you for or are you against people indiscriminately killing civilians in the name of a religious or political agenda?
since i am a true follower of the holy quran and it’s peacefull teachings, i am totally against ALL acts of killing innocent people, regardless if they are muslim or not.
now your turn… and this question is directed to all athiests… as i want to see how honest you guys really are.
are you for or against America indiscriminately killing civilians such as dropping nukes on Hiroshima in the name of freedom and liberty or political agenda like democracy?
Since I am a rational human being with compassion for other human beings built into my brain via the process of my species’ successful evolution (so far), I am against people being killed indiscriminately, be they civilians or not, be they “innocent” or not, be they religious or not.
See? My moral attitude in this regard is the same as yours (or better, depending on what you mean by innocent, and if that makes a difference to you) and I didn’t need to consult a holy book to teach me this. In fact, I don’t think you do either. You just think you do.
i am not deliberately avoiding anyone’s questions. i dont know what questions GAD is asking because i have the idiot on ignore due to what he said.
If someone has zero respect for your brand of god-worship and chooses to speak out publicly against what they consider its baseless and irrational teachings and its harmful effects on society, do you consider them “innocent”.
The question was asked because being “innocent” was one of the conditions you gave for your being against people being killed.
depends what you call “zero respect”. if he was just an idiot ranting on and on about how there is no islam or no god. i would pity him depending on his level of interllect. but i would say that they are not innocent, they would be classed as the fools and the ignorant. but that does not warrant killing. they will just be a laughing stock but i would not physically harm them. i would just stay way from them after trying to make them see the “light”.
however, if you mean that he can get away with insulting and causing mischief in the land and try to hurt the muslims feelings, then he would deserve punishment. i will give you an example:
let’s suppose you love your wife or mother so much. you have so much respect for them and think the world of them. they are your “heroes”. then suppose i call your wife or mother a silly or ignorant person, you may let me get away with that. but if i start calling her a slut, prostitute and other real bad names, how would you react ? you many not want to kill me (as that depends on your level of love for her) but at the very least you would want to hit me or call the police. agree ?
Here’s another case for which I suspect you will take the opportunity to blame America and Israel, especially if it leads to war. At least their own people are trying to force changes from within at great personal risk to be free from tyranny and theocracy without giving up their relgious beliefs:
Rhetoric vs. reality: Iran faces nuclear setbacks: Huge rally and protests mark Iran revolution. White House announces new Iran asset freeze. Defiant Iran accelerates nuclear program
Western powers blame Tehran for rejecting an internationally endorsed plan to defuse the situation by having Iran export its low enriched uranium for enrichment abroad and returned as fuel rods for the Tehran reactor.
Iran, in turn, asserts it had no choice but to start enriching to higher levels because its suggested changes to the international plan were rejected.
The president said Iran will triple the production of its low-enriched uranium in the future but didn’t elaborate.
“God willing, daily production (of low enriched uranium) will be tripled.” - Ahmadinejad
what a clown you are. you say iran people wants to be free from tyranny and theocracy? well excuse dopey, the majority of the iran people wants the regime there. majority of the people fully back the elected government of president Ahmadinejad. its only the CIA financed minority (2%) that wants to return to the old days of the shah (who was a US puppet). it was the people who overthrew the US backed government in 1979 and invited ayotullah khomenie to take the seat of ruler-ship.
it was the shah’s tyranny and oppressive rule which led to the REVOLUTION and your government has been upset ever since because the iran government doesnt play ball with the US like other middle east dictators. most of the iran people back the nuclear energy issue. most of the people follow the ayotollahs in iran. why dont you open up that un-evolved biased brain of yours and watch neutral news instead of cnn and fox news. thats the thing with your atheist’s, either, your trying to change history, of if you cant deny historical facts, you twist them so much to suit your agenda. thats makes you a hypocrite if you deliberately conceal the truth
[ goodygraydrab posts some more news from pro-west websites.]
@goodygraydrab…you are a very biased monkey. did you ever bother to check before you posted those anti-iranian websites that they just maybe they are not impartial? did it ever occur to that monkey brain to check the sources before you post anything? or do you enjoy being an idiot? maybe it becomes natural to you. i have highlighted (because you may not still see) the parts in the articles to make you open your eyes and mind and peel of that anti-iranian propaganda you have been fed with. ALL of those websites you have posted are pro jewish. bet you did not research that did you before posting it. i bet you did just a google search and found what YOU wanted to see and got excited and rattled your cage in the process. why dont you atheists (just for once in your life) look at some NEUTRAL evidence? this shows how really honest you guys are.
W. Collins:
Apparently you didn’t do the research either Goldenhawk, because you offered zero evidence to support your claim that the websites are biased.
rays:
There are a war going on between two parties - US and Iran - and, only an idiot would ask for evidence which shows that one side is impartral in providing information about the war.
These types of "educated" idiots have their own sources of brainwashing.
LATEST REPORTS FROM THE MORON CHANNEL:
BREAKING NEWS:
Hillary Clinton rejects UN Security Council Resolution that says " War Makes Fighters Biased "
HEADLINES: Polls shows majority of Americans support Hillary Clinton for White House.
goodygraydrab:
Well here comes the other maggot that slithered out from under the slimey rock having evolved from the shit Muhammad took in that cave. You’re an idiot to say that there’s a war between two parties. This conflict involves the international community as much as the two parties. We know how biased you are and your sources. It’s all the reporting from the poor victimized Western and Israeli hating Muslim world. Then you have the audacity to say you follow the tenets of your religion that states it respects the Jews. I note again many of the issues which the both of you skip over and ignore on questions that I have posed to you, including what’s your take on the holocaust and now, do you accept Israel’s right to exist?
@goodygraydrab…who rattled your cage? it’s look like i have touched a monkey nerve. your true swinging colours are coming ot now. by the way, no need to use foul language. i thought you were civilised and well mannered. guess i was wrong. you seem to have forgotton your “harvard” education. or did you take a profession in zoology. i bet if you were pushed far enough, you would have a suicide belt on….coming to my house. you are a atheist terrorists.
You’re fucking idiocy is more than a rational person can stand and more than we need to tolerate on this forum. You’ve been given every opportunity to speak intelligently, but you don’t have any. My true colors are no secret here. You’re the one who started with the name calling and insults. You don’t know the meaning of civilized and well-mannered. You’re a hypocrite. Like I said, I’m done trying to have a rational conversation with you and trying to be decent about it. But unlike others here who think I should just not converse at all, I have no objection to fighting fire with fire. You have a very small mind, Muhawk. You don’t belong here and it’s obvious you’re here for only one purpose. At least I don’t go to Muslim sites to issue out insults and vulgarities. Mmmm ... not a bad idea.
@goodgraydrab…why should any athiest get upset when i call them monkey? its a fact according to you guys. you should be proud of it. its like someone calling me a muslim or son of adam. why should i mind ? anyway from now on, we should ignore one another.
When you speak, you demonstrate your idiocy by not recognizing it, a common trait of the religious which spills over into the secular.
@goodgraydrab…when you speak, i can smell the arrogance and prejudice flowing from your mouth. thats because you cant handle the truth. when the going gets tough, you resort to swearing. i am always getting ganged up by you guys but do you ever see me using foul language? no ! thats because islam teaches me good manners and tell me not to swear. but then again, you have no rules or morals execpt personal opinions, and thats where you go horribly wrong.
So you don’t say fuck so you’re a good Muslim, therefore you’re a good person ... not prejudiced, arrogant or with bad manners at all ... and right too. We’re wrong, huh? We should be like you? What a laugh. You’re too stupid to know how stupid you are.
W. Collins :
He is too stupid to insult. Any insult I can think of would be an improvement on his actual character.
wow ! all you apes ganging upon me? do you hunt in packs os something ? or does your animal instinct just take over and then you start using foul language? i have noticed than when i debate with you and the going gets tough, then the tough (or apes) get going. also since you dont have any shame or morals, you dont know what an insult is. this is how pathetic your life has become because you cant handle the truth, yet you claim to be open-minded ? your just as brainashed as a suicide bomber who think he knows it all and going to heaven. i see not difference from other than, his evil scholar telling him and your sick and twised mind telling you.
W. Collins:
You’ve been an arrogant, insulting, dick since post one Goldenhawk. You lost your right to cry victim a long time ago. Doesn’t Islam have some kind of golden rule? “Do unto other as you would have them do unto you.”, “you reap what you sow.”, aren’t there any statements of that sort in you’re little holy book?
goodygraydrab:
You don’t know what debate is, you don’t know what shame and morals are, you don’t know what an insult is, you don’t know what truth is, you don’t know what open-minded is, you don’t know what brainwashed is ... you don’t know anything. You can pretend to your fellow Muslims and receive reinforcement from them, but you can’t pretend and receive reinforcement here. To expect that you might is just as delusional as your belief system. The differences in your last point are that Atheists are not suicide bombers, Muslims are, and no one else is telling us to do anything, like suicide bombers and you are being told ... and obeying, or in your case, thinking that you are.
goodgraydrab and W.collins......dont bother replying or asking questions as you are both on ignore due to your blasphemous remarks regarding the holy prophet (S).
W. Collins :
He is too stupid to insult. Any insult I can think of would be an improvement on his actual character.
rays:
So now, insulting is a sign of wisdom.
I see.
Is that in Berkley Curriculum, or a new study at Harvard?
I know that Madagascar Primate Institute has a program on it. Are you gentlemen exchange students?
Its quite amazing that godlenhawk786 has a sharp vision.
Its remarkable how this bird of prey has developed the natural ability to see certain lower species from distance, even those hiding in the gutter.
Its survival of the fittest.
or survival or the hairiest !
rays:
I know they make a mess and pee everywhere, droppings, dung and all that stuff,
but nevertheless, God is tolerant to them. He is so lenient.
World would be not be an entertaining place without a circus now and then.
We would have been bored until we entered Paradise.
By allowing Atheists to hang around on His good Earth, God has been so merciful His believers.
Now its….
Live Entertainment in Full Glorious 4-D.
Better than the film Avatar.
James Cameron cannot beat God in providing entertainment.-
amazing ! judging from you usual comments, i didn’t know you were capable of thinking independently! keep it up and you may actually discover that your ancestors were always human.
Gila Guerilla:
It’s a pity but . . .
[Image: Both Atheists monkeys and golddenhawk786 Head butt the same wall]
@gila guerila…well this is how i feel sometimes when i am talking to you guys. everytime i want to bring up a subject (evolution or islam), it always gets derailed. i know you guys cant answer my questions, but at least you should be mature enough to concede that i have made valid points instead of be childish.
-
Christian Scott:
So you are willing to die for god, fine. I think we mainly have a problem when the person also takes 500 other people with them.
that depends on who those 500 people are. if the 500 people are soldiers occupying a country and one goes and blows then all up, like in Beirut 1983 (240 US marines died), then i wont condemn it. if one kills innocent people (muslim or not), then i strongly condemn it. every case needs to be analyzed individually and judge accordingly.
“Muslim means that god has created the baby is submitting to gods will”? I think what you are trying to say is the literal meaning of Muslim or: one who submits. Obviously it is meant as one who submits to god.
muslim means one who does submit to god. all babies are muslims but they are submitting to god. if you cant comprehend this, then thats your fault. you should research into it.
[you said]“i dont agree with islam as a late religion. it has been always the first, its people changing the true teachings of the prophet of god. thats one of the reason why, i beleive, god sent so many prophets to so many nations, but after time passes, people corrupt the teachings. jesus was a muslim so was moses etc…”
I can understand what you mean GH. I studied a bit of Islamic Architecture, History, and religious teaching in university. One thing i was taught first in many of the courses i took was how the Prophet Muhammad was the last prophet. That In truth, Islam doesn’t believe that Christians or Jews are totally wrong… just corrupted and mis-translated over years. I understand this is what you are talking about, you just call them all Muslim. So to clarify, all monotheistic religions are the same (same god at least), just Muhammad’s words and preachings are the purest because its less corrupted
i am happy you understood what i said. but remember, islam is not corrupted at all, if it was, like it is in Christianity and Judaism, then i would not believe in it or follow it.
The next prevailing theme in all my courses was tied to the idea that Muhammad simply came down to correct the confusion and corruption. Due to the fact that Islam ( or the latest addition) was just a correction or add-on to Christianity (or in your view, corrupted Islam) the Qur’an was made as just that… an add-on. All my teachers for all my Islamic courses made sure that we properly understood this: You cannot properly understand that Qur’an without reading the bible.
correct ! finally, someone with some sense is actually agreeing with me! this is getting scary !
So my questions are as follows:
1: Have you read the bible? If not, how can you properly argue for your religion without the basics (the bible). If you don’t agree that the bible is a required reading to understand the Qu’ran, please explain why. Don’t forget that you already admitting to believing that Jesus and all the other prophets were Muslim (just somewhat corrupt) and so technically it makes sense for the bible to be part of the Islamic doctrine. Read the bible, read the Qu’ran, since the Qu’ran is the most up the date, anything contradictory between them = Qu’ran takes precedence.
yes i have read the bible. bible can be read because SOME of the teachings are still true. most however has been corrupted during the passage of time. bible is not required to be read in order to believe in islam. the teachings of jesus (AS) were first of all, only for the children of Israel (the jews) for that time until up-to the holy prophet Muhammad (S) came. the complete guidance was not until 600 years later. jesus himself stated that in the gospel of st john. when allah mentions the the previous scriptures, it uses the word injeel and the torat (the good news revelations given to jesus and moses (AS) ) and not the bible. allah talks about the pure and original teachings of jesus and moses but they were corrupted by mankind after the passing away. also the bible as we know it today, is unscientific, self contradictory, corrupted, does not solve the problems for mankind, on the contrary, its teaches the opposite.
2: In my second Quote from you, you mentioned this:
"babies are pure and if left alone, they will automatically conclude that there must be a god (or an intelligent designer, as you guys like to call it) and will come on the path of islam and will start to worship is creator."
Do you really believe this? I can understand an automatic thinking of “there must be a designer” (not saying its correct), but surely you do not think that the Muslim religion would just start up again and be the exact same preachings if we were to restart from scratch? It took a long time before monotheistic gods were even created by humans…
i didn’t say the baby would be following ALL the teachings of islam, if left alone on a desert island. i am saying, that the baby would automatically conclude that there is god. its called the god spot installed by birth in every person. if a person is sincere and open minded, god will guide him onto the truth and bring him in to islam fully. its only when mankind rebels and refuses to acknowledge his creator through his pride and arrogance, like these apes in this forum.
Even so… obviously we have been seeing splits and “corruption” within the Islamic State and culture. Even the question of who is the proper successor of Muhammad is unsure. Do you take the Shiite or the Sunni’s side of the story. How many people have claimed to be the next Imam? Even looking at the history we can see decrees that change the Islamic religion. Praying 5 times a day, to 3, back to 5 etc etc. Brothers would go at war with each other over being the next caliphate and change Islamic laws (religious laws) just make them reflect the interest of the people at the time.
i am a shia muslim. i agree with you here, islam is not being followed properly my majority of the muslims because people (most muslims) refused to recognise the true sayings of the holy prophet Muhammad (S). i am not here to defend sunni islam, as there are many faults with it, i follow the true islam, the shia version. the moment true islam, rises, i will leave this country and live in that country. thats one of the reasons i am here. the muslim leaders have been installed by the US government, and they make sure that true islam does not get established. so they are keeping it curropt, therefore i had to choose between the two evils. i chose the lesser evil be coming to europe. if i was a sunni, then i would totally agree with you and concede this point.
Have you actually done any historic readings of the Islamic culture surrounding your religion GH? Its as corrupted and changed from its “pure state” as much as Christianity and Judaism is. Why are you so adamant into thinking you are right with all the changes of the Islamic religion since Muhammad’s original teachings. Wouldn’t it be best to just be a good person (don’t harm/kill, don’t steal, don’t lie, give to the needy) and not follow some dictators laws?
yes i have studies islam historically. like i have mentioned above, if you just prove to me ONE POINT, where shia islam is corrupted from the original teachings, then you win the argument and i will openly admitted to it. i am a good person, but then who decides whats good or bad ? atheist cant judge or say lying is bad. they just follow there own personal morals. even atheist cant agree with each other on morals. one atheist may decide what is a good moral is, another atheist my have a different view and may reject it. thats why they will never discuss morality with me. i challenge them on this point.
All the old versions of your Islam have been corrupted, why are you so sure that what you are being taught isn’t corrupted as well? Especially with what we know of Islamic History (obviously you are an genius in this subject).
like i said, i dont want many points on this issue. just give me ONE point where you believe islam has been corrupted. i look forward to your next post. peace.
Gila Guerilla:
In the face of intellectual might, it is a ploy used by some, that to reduce the opponents, they will use not logic, but name calling. It is a sad truth that many people here do the same to gh786. Since I have set on a course to be strictly reasonable, and free from insulting others, I will not resort to calling him Muhawk, or blithering Muslim buffoon, or whatever. I’ll let his own words do that for me. I would much prefer to use logic to show that his ideas are awry. If he cannot see that his ideas are loopy, then calling him names won’t alter that. For the record, I don’t actually have proof that gh786 is indeed stupid, idiotic, or a buffoon. I do know that his ideas are frustratingly rigid, and so far impervious to points of view which don’t agree with his.
I am willing to concede that, like us, he is just another intelligent human being living with a world view which is precious to him, and which he will not give up easily. It is also obvious to me that some lines of thinking are so alien to his own, that they seem like idiocy and buffoonery to him.
I don’t think that we should have the attitude of: ’How dare he not be able to see things our way’.
@Gila Guerilla...thank you for the above two posts. your seem very reasonable and a genuine nice person. at least you don’t have the insulting attitude like the rest of these guys. therefore i am willing to talk to you and feel we can have a debate. the only concern for me is, if me and you starting talking (after a few posts), then the rest will attempt to derail the subject and turn it into something else. it has happened before unless they can promise me not to do it again.
Gila Guerilla:
It is not necessary for you to respond to derailments, if that’s what you think they are. If you want to “thrash out” a particular topic, then that’s what I’m after too. So far I don’t know what our topic is.
The thread title is ‘Questions for goldenhawk786’. My question for you is can you please give me a starter for my research into finding the references which tell me that babies are born Muslim, and submitting to “God”?
I am responding to your suggestion that we do some research. The problem is I haven’t been able to find anything useful on the topic that babies are born Muslim, and submitting to “God” as above. Thanks.
isocratic infidel :
ooops. Looks like I stumbled in on the tail end of a long debate, but I think I can help you out here Gila Guerilla.
What Goldenhawk786 is referring to is a concept in Islam known as fitrah. When he says “all babies are born muslim,” he means that all babies are born in the perfect state of fitrah or purity or grace, as opposed to being born in sin, as the christian religions teach. Left alone or within the practice of Islam one can develop one’s fitrah or dampen it.
One cannot convert to Islam because, according to Islam, “all babies” are all born of Islam, therefore, anyone who lost their fitrah, due to being born into another place with a different faith or religion or secular ideal and finds Islam, that person is considered to be a revert to Islam: the original state of being.
*Note that only male babies are born in this state, as woman was created by Allah to be in the service of men, as he [man] is “Our” greatest creation.
**Did I get that correct Goldenhawk?
In hopes that this was a help, rather than a derail.
yes, you are correct and i could not have put it better myself. thank you infidel. although there is lot more to it than this but you have summarized it well.
@Gila Guerilla…i am sorry for the late reply as i have been and wil be busy for the next few weeks at least. hope you got the answer on all babies born muslim by the isocratic infidel guy. thats what i meant and i was trying to form it from my native language to english. although there is still a lot more to it. i didnt not find it on the internet. it was told to me a scholar and at first, i could not get me head around it, but then it made sense after elaborating on the point further.
anyway Gila Guerilla, i am sorry if my english is not to good as its my second language so try to understand and be patient. if your not sure on what i have said, then just ask me instead of assuming on what i mean. we can eliminate lots of misunderstandings. also i think we you should start a new thread called “questions for goldenhawk, round 3” and start the debate there. this thread is in a mess (not your fault) due to the apes who cant keep their mouth shut.
so what topic should we discuss? well i wanted to talk about evolution but i want to talk about that topic with another member called “jefe”. so i dont want to start two debates with two different members at the same time. i admit, i am not an expert of evolution, and most of my information is coming from my friends father, who is a micro-biologist. he is not a muslim or a christian but he does believe in some sort of intelligent design and rejects evolution theory. so what i am discuss with you is about islam firstly.
as mentioned, i want to talk about evolution but that’s with another member called “jefe” and will begin debating with him on that topic AFTER i have debated with you. so we should begin from islam and take one step at a time. i look forward to your response and will try my best to reply at least once a week.
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@Gila Guerilla…i agree with most of your comments in the above post. As i have mentioned before, i condemn in the most strongest terms, anyone killing innocent people in the name if islam. you are right when you said these people still claim to be muslim. you must remember one key point here GG, they can call themselves muslim, but a muslim is he who follows the true path of islam. yes, i agree that they have their own twisted interpretation of the holy quran to justify their actions, but the truth is always clear from error. therefore, i don’t consider them to be muslim, neither do most of the the scholars. just as atheists (stalin, MAO etcc..) committed evil crimes, but i don’t for one moment consider all athiests share or condone their actions.
also what you have said about islam, thats the sunni version of islam you are talking about. i follow the shia islam so then if we going to talk about islam, or to prove a point, or have any questions regarding islam, then it should be restricted to what i believe. similarly, i am aware that not all atheists have the same view on evolution, thats why if i am going to talk about evolution, i should make a case on what you believe, not what others believe about this theory. do you agree so far? also can you start a new thread. this thread is round 2 so can you start a new thread (called it questions for goldenhawk786 round 3 ?) LOL. also please bear in mind, that i will try to respond once a week to to my new work patterns and other commitments. thank you. peace.
[ Debate continues...page 24 ]
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goldenhawk786 signature was: Evolution proven wrong here: http://www.harunyahya.com
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