For Goldenhawk : good reasons to reject Islam
sheba, Posted: 10 January 2010 11:01 PM
Greetings, goldenhawk,
Do you know what my greatest fear is ? Do you know what would be just about the worst thing that could happen to mankind in this day and age ?
After a natural disaster, the worst thing that could happen to the world, the free and enlightened world,would be to have it sink down once more into the ignorant, dark caverns of religious tyranny .
We were there before, and thank heaven we managed to rise above it. We , relatively speaking, left that oppressive life behind and managed to free ourselves and live our lives according to our own desires and choices. But it was not easy ; blood was shed and tears were spilled, and finally years and years of yearning , and struggling mankind saved itself . And now you want to see Islam gain power and take us back into that nightmare of the past. Islam is the opposite of forward Goldenhawk—it is a plunge into the past.
But you became a Muslim and decided that Islam was the only way forward. I can’t help but wonder who in the world would have taught you such a lie ? Like I told you before, before you just accept what you have been told as the truth, please do the sensible thing and at least read some books on the subject that teach you the other side of the coin. Really, Goldenhawk you owe that to yourself, and maybe even the others in your life who care for you.
Yes , the truth is that Islam is ages backward. All the prominent large religions of the past were at least in some way a problem and a burden to man rather than a blessing, but the churches of yesterday changed , and changed for the better. They became more humane, and that is what counts. BUT—-there is one religion that didn’t change, and that is the one you believe in. It never did get our of the past, AND it never did become humane. Isn’t that enough right there to make you at least want to question it and think about leaving it ?
To embrace Islam is to make old habits, beliefs and ways of life that were once practiced centuries ago , be a part of your life. Would those practices make a person’s life better ? Not unless you like being possessed by an institution that has strict and ridged religious laws that it expects you to live up to. It will dominate your life as if you haven’t got a mind of your own. After classes studying the Koran, listening to lectures, listening to certain friends, and radical “pep-talks ” your mind will be so numb you will actually be convinced the free world will accept Islam and it will lead it into prosperity ! Do you think humankind will allow that to happen without a fight ? Why should we want to along with something that would rob us of something so precious as freedom ?
To allow Islam to dominate us is to allow mankind to fall back into the Dark Ages .
“FREE” is the key word here. Islam is the opposite of freedom. It does not allow citizens to speak their mind or criticize religion, or government. Most often anything can be said about any religion and it is okay, but criticize Islam and it is called “blasphemy ” or “Insulting Islam “. That freedom of speech will be gone. Say goodbye to that precious right.
And what rights you do have will be determined by the Islamic clergy, not you.
Too bad you are not a woman because Islam is hardest on women. I have heard some say it is hell. If you were female, it would not be hard to convince you that Islam is VERY UNFAIR . But woman’s problems may not mean that much to you. After all women in the Muslim world are subordinate to men. As a matter of fact ISLAM IS A LIFE OF RESTRICTIONS for both man and woman.
When you join that world of Islam and become ever so serious about it at first it may seem like a really good uplifting thing for you. It will probably make you feel like you have been given a good purpose in life. And you are looking for something inspirational like that, aren’t you ? And , altogether, it probably gives you a feeling of power. And that’s something you like. That’s a shame though, because in the long run you may find you are paying too high a price for all that. You should understand that your own individual rights are very important and ultimately are your REAL source of power. Don’t accept Islam at the expense of your freedom and right to independant thinking .
I hope you consider what I am telling you Goldenhawk. If you have any questions about anything I have said be sure and ask me.
Best regards
Sheba
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May I have just a few hours for this thread please ? I have written at least three posts to Goldenhawk and somehow they get plowed under .
The tile “reasons to reject Islam ” is a more fitting one anyhow . So if anyone reading this wants to add his/her posts to the “no good reason to hate Islam” could you just add it to this new thread ? I want to talk to Goldenhawk- he may end up feeling it’s done some good. ( I hope )
DEE / Sheba
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What do you think ?
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Sorry if I offended- I’m just trying to connect with Goldenhawk, and there seems to be at least three different threads on the Islam subject being shifted around every half hour or so.
On his first post , Goldenhawk asked us to give him “one good reason ” to not accept Islam. Or was it one good reason why it was bad? Same difference. Anyhow, since nobody has anything to gain ,really , by calling names and insulting, I just wrote Goldenhawk some posts that lay the cards on the table , so to speak. As far as I can figure, there are so many reasons why Islam is wrong , it is hard to know where to start, but I tried to present some perspective right away.
Goldenhawk may have great enthusiasm for that religion, which most of us think .is disgusting, but he may be a very nice person so he doesn’t deserve to be belittled . Now Islam itself….that’s something else.
Goldenhawk, if you happen to read this, post me a post, will you ?
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goldenhawk786:
@ Sheba…Could you please ask me the questions again but this time i dont want to read your novel. i dont like it when i have to read all threads. so i want quick fire questions otherwise this will take a long time.
As for the rest of you apes, watch this match from the trees, where you naturally belong as this is going to be a human battle and does not require monkeys, unless you can give me some bananas to re-energize myself.
goodgraydrab:
I can better see what’s going on if I slip off my roost, take my wooden levering tool and lift the rock to watch the vermin crawling about. I got your banana ...
will your fellow chimps also give me a banana when i interlectually win over your mother ape sheba, and finally lock her up where she belongs? in a zoo !
Is the ‘conversation’ over already Muhawk? Oh right, it just takes place inside your head.
I am directing it at the over zelous monkeys, not to sheba becuase she has been nice to me so far. i was responding to the rest of you monkeys. anyway i can wait to get this debate started. where is she ? bring on the ring leader!
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Well make sure you have VIP tickets coz i dont want you to miss anything do i ?
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sheba:
Okay, Goldenhawk, I hear you, but my first post on this thread is very important and not really so long.
Please do read it ! Take it a sentence at a time and understand what I’m telling you .
Can you understand why I feel that surrendering ourselves to religious oppression would be the worst thing that could happen to mankind ? Why do you think I say that ? I agree that Islam is rising, and that I believe that is a frightening thing , not a good thing. You undoubtedly think I’m wrong. You evidently think Islam would be helpful to the human race ? Why ?
I want to know why you decided to embrace Islam. Was it something you read ? Family , friends, listening to speeches; the mosque ? That you joined must mean also that you were ready and anxious for that kind of commitment. I hope you didn’t join because of some vengeance you feel for those who Islam sees as enemies , or hatred for “unbelievers ” . ( ?) What do you expect to gain from being a follower of Islam ?
When you first posted here you asked for one good reason why Islam was wrong. Of course, I acknowledge that whether a religion is good or bad is determined by how an individual sees it . BUT——do you realize that most people in this time in history DO believe that the moral values and teachings of Islam are BENEATH the modern-day standards of humanity ? Islam has failed to pass that test ! You should ask why it’s that way .That should be of great concern to you.
You don’t like a long post so I guess I have to end this now. But I want to continue “talking ” with you, because, like I said before, you have more to gain than lose hearing the objective view of your religion…whether you stay with it or not .
Dee Sheba..(.If you find it annoying that I have 2 names, well I do to ! I couldn’t get to the forum one day for some mysterious reason so I tried another name and password. It got me back to the forum, but most people here still think of me as “Dee” . Call me what you like. )
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I’m just adding a few more words here so you won’t lose me. This subject has at least three threads working for it at the same time and it’s getting annoying.
I hope you will take time to answer my questions. Thanks, Sheba
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Goldenhawk,
It seems to get harder and harder to get a real conversation going here, but do carry on . I’m waiting to hear how you answer my questions. Please read my last , or next to last post to you…just a few posts up .
I know everyone is “talking at you ” and it must be confusing. You can’t answer everything !
Sheba
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OK to answer you previous posts, i apologize if there has been a delay in giving my answer, but i had to think hard about you questions and reply to you in a full comprehensive way. I have contemplated your queires very carefuly, and i must say, i did require assistant of my brother to try to explain it the best possible way to you. we have already posted an article 9 months ago, which i beleive, would give you your answers to your questions. i wanted to write it in my own way and give you the answers from my style of responding, however at the ned my and my brother noth agreed that this could complicate matters evern more. I am sorry that this reply is going to be long, you will have to go through it and find out the points on which you disagree with. we can then proceed further.
If, in the age of superstition, man could adhere to a religion based on irrational beliefs, it was because, religion being sacred to him, he could not think rationally about it. But the age of “today” is the age of reason. Today man analyzes everything in the light of reason. That is why he is no longer prepared to believe in an irrational religion.
Let us now take this matter from the standpoint of science. With the emergence of modern science, man was led into thinking that this new discipline would be able to provide an intellectual base upon which he could firmly plant himself. Science had helped man to discover the natural world - a world which was extremely meaningful in that it had perfect order and planning. Science, as opposed to the existing religions, was thus free from internal contradictions.
Yet, once again, man was balked of the perfect system of thought that he so desired. And this was because of a serious shortcoming in science itself. That is, science could only answer the question `what?’ It could not tell man anything about the `why’ of things. It was as if science had given man a good machine in perfect working order, but had told him nothing about its maker.
Man seeks an explanation for everything, being an explanation-seeking animal. So when science introduces man to a universe which has design and planning without introducing him to the designer and planner, man, instead of being satisfied, is baffled. He is at his wits’ end to understand how design could come into existence in the absence of a designer. How could a plan exist without there being a planner?
It is this shortcoming of the scientific world which leads all thinking people, right from Albert Einstein to Stephen Hawking to feel strongly that “there are aspects in the universe which are extremely difficult to understand.” This intellectual difficulty has been expressed by Schrodinger in these words: “The most incomprehensible thing about nature is that it is comprehensible.”
True, the universe, as discovered by science, is unmarred by anything of a contradictory nature. Yet scientists have not been able to build up a convincing body of scientific knowledge without making reference to God. This is because a universe which is free of contradictions cannot be explained without God.
It is this state of impasse which I have called modern man’s intellectual crisis. The man of today finds himself beset on all sides by it. To rid himself of this problem, he looks to religion. But most religions - due to human interpolations do not face up to to the standards of reason. Likewise, when he looks to science, it fails to provide him with the mental satisfaction he so desires.
The only solution to this crisis of the intellect is Islam - a pure and unadulterated religion, which exists still in its original, revealed state, without human interpolation. As such, it is the only religion which is in any position to provide a complete system of thought to modern man. Islam is in perfect consonance with his nature. At the same time it holds out to him the pure concept of monotheism, by which he may explain the universe. The greatest service to mankind today would be to introduce it to Islam. It is the only system which can resolve the intellectual crisis of mankind.
I know its a lengthy post, but i felt the it was neccecary for a full reply. i will patiently wait for your rebuttle. take your time. there is no rush.
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Jefe:
Here are a few good reasons to be skeptical about Islam:
Sura (8:55) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve
Sura (48:29) - Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves
Sura (9:30) - And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah… Allah (Himself) fights against them. How perverse are they!
Sura (8:12) - I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them
Sura (9:123) - O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness
Sura (5:33) - The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement
Most of these verses are taken out of context. you really should learn about, when, where and who the verse is talking about and the conditions set in the verses after and preceeding it.some of the verses you have mentioned are not even transllated corectly. enough said
[ Atheists give more and more verses from Quran for goldenhawk786:]
this is getting tiring man. you monekeys clearly have not undestood the quran and never will. your islam comes from mr uncle google anti-islam
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ChaosRules:
I know I’m going to be sorry for jumping into this thread, but I just can’t help myself. I know that self-flagellation is a respected act in some religions, but I will subject myself to it even though I am not religious.
If, in the age of superstition, man could adhere to a religion based on irrational beliefs, it was because, religion being sacred to him, he could not think rationally about it. But the age of “today” is the age of reason. Today man analyzes everything in the light of reason. That is why he is no longer prepared to believe in an irrational religion.
etc etc etc
So, in my view this all started well enough. You talked about reason, science, the universe ,the incredible dichotomy that man finds himself confronted with and cannot hope to overcome. But wait! In the end it’s suddenly obvious - Islam is the answer! In case you didn’t detect the sarcasm dripping off that last sentence - it was there. You made an incredible leap of intuition from describing the problem to descrbing the solution. You tried to give some reasons why Islam is the one to turn to to get out of this muddle, but the logic didn’t follow. So, it’s best because it’s the oldest and hasn’t changed in umpteen millenia? Hmmm…I thought change was good. You know, evolve with the times? Oops, maybe I should have said adapt with the times, since you don’t believe in evolution.
love the saracam dude. Islam, doesn’t need to adapt to modern times. its future proof. its mankind thats playing the catching up game with islam. science had realised this by researching into the quran like the big bang fact. this was stated in the quran 1400 years ago. but science has only discovered this only since “yesterday”. many, many other scientific facts in the quran where science is only agreeing with them know due to the advance by mankind. unlike evoltuonists who are constantly changiing there theories time and time again. by saying islam needs to change to keep up with the jonses, well that means islam is not a perfect religion and allah has not perfected his religion due to its contniues changing to the current situations. well that would not then be islam.
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W. Collins:
lol, google… Anti-Islam?
When I type in “Islam is…” or “Muslims are…” google does not offer a single suggestion. You must set the bar extremely low for something to qualify as “anti-Islam”.
well i dont hink thats true. if it is then what version of google are you using? i love islam google or i hate islam google? or might it be, i dont know anything about islam but i am just going to make things up about islam google ?
You don’t have to think it’s true. Go to Google.com and do the exact same thing and then you’ll know it’s true.
I have and it comes up with “intertesting stuff” abou islam
Jefe:
Are you saying that these excerpts are not part of islamic tradition? Or are you saying that islamic tradition downplays these parts of the Sura?
And if speaking about islamic tradition, are you talking about a select localized tradition, or global islamic tradition?
read up my previous posts and the answer is there.
sheba:
Hello again Goldenhawk, sorry to be so late answering but I have been caught up in the efort to raise money for the poor people of Haiti .
It is just as I thought- you are enthused about Islam because you are looking for ( for lack of another word ) spiritual fulfillment of a kind. As you have already noted, most people do look for that at one time or the other. You must have been listening to some very good talkers on the subject or read some very positive written material . Keep in mind that anyone talking about religion, professionals included, will only tell you the alleged grand and glorious things about it. No one can sell like an evangelist or other clergyman . They can be super-convincing whether they are right, wrong, nonsensical or rational . They are impressive for sure. I know, I once listened to Mormon “priests” telling us all the reasons in the world why Mormonism was the truth, the only way in life, the ANSWER ! He even had me convinced he made sense ; everything seemed to fit in place ! Later on after I’d looked back I am disgusted that I could really have believed that stuff.
well i can say the same thing about athiests. i have seen their work, watched their videos, been to lectures and they all can look very convincing also.
You mentioned an array of things that you heard about Islam and how wonderful and sensible they seem to you. What I am saying is that you should realize that these “fantastic” qualities you have heard about Islam and how it is the answer to man’s spiritual shortcomings and , as you put it, “intellectual crisis ”—they are THE SAME QUALITIES that most ALL RELIGIONS and their preachers claim to have ! Islam is not unique in that way; they ALL claim to be mentally, physically, and spiritually fulfilling ! WHY , Goldenhawk, should you believe that Islam is any more realistic, and qualified to meet your expectations and keep it’s promises than any other one of these religions ?
Well ithey are not the same qualities of ALL religions. if that was the case people would not leave religion if they have everything it can offer them. if you investigate, you will reaslise that since world war II, christianity has been in decline ever since. church attendances have been dropping etc…
And if you investigate about islam, you will see it is on the rise, specially in the western world, particularly in the USA. and its not just any tom, dick and harry converting, its the highly educated western thinkers, like scientists. i can give proof if you want. so you really need to check up on this sheba.
Let me be fair to you and remind you right now that I am NOT pro-Islam. As I said before , I think it is all wrong. I just wanted to remind you so you are not shocked when I come on negative.
well thank you for letting me know. i appreiciate you honestly and am begining to like you ! i know, wow !
Ask any true “believer” of any religion. He/she will tell you about all the wonderful things it is and means for them and how IT is the ONE and ONLY “true ” religion !! Ask “how do you know that ?” They will say “Oh I just know !” “Because it makes sense ! ” It is the ONLY ONE that has those “pure” and satisfying qualities !” And if you tell them they are wrong they still insist there’s just HAS to be the one true religion.
because i have researched other religions such and christianity. for me, this does not give me any solutions to mankind, has been currupted from its orignal form (so many different versions of the bible), scientifically not compatible (earth was created approx 6000 years ago), sefl contracitions in the reilgion. as for the islam, its the other way around.
If I hadn’t made myself question the Mormon church and looked at it objectively I would still be in that crazy church today. At the time I didn’t know it, but nothing about it made sense—-but I was turned on to that rapturous feeling that I found something wonderful that would be uplifting to my whole life . I beg you, Goldenhawk, to do the same as I did and start asking questions about Islam and read some objective books , look at some videos or listen to an objective speaker. Let me tell you this : DOUBT is the first step to truth . Don’t be satisfied with what you have heard from some people or writers who are necessarily prejudiced in favor of that religion. They will tell you anything and convince you it really has a lot of “reason “
good point sheba. thats the beauty of reason and the free mind but thats also the beauty of islam. it incourges to think, to use wisdom, to reflect, to question. where as other relgions just tell you to “beleive” in what they are saying. so far not one person has given me one god reason to move way fromislam or to tell me why it is so wrong to beleive in it. i am open to critism so you can fire away with the questions.
Why do most people turn down the idea of “God” and any religion that professes to know him ? I think it simmers down to this : there IS NO EVIDENCE . Man has claimed God is real since time began and in all that time has never been able to come up with any evidence. The Muslim believer is especially convinced because Muslim people take their religion so seriously, and it is such a huge part of their lives. They are taught to swallow everything they are told about Islam from the time they are little children. No wonder they Allah is real and Islam is the only way to happiness ! So there they are , devoting their minds and souls ; their lives, to an alleged being called “Allah” , praying to him 5 times a day and chanting to him etc. etc. ...all the while they never have ever seen him. The same with other religions and their believers. They are guided by a fantasy, and it leads them around by the nose. “Unbelievers” reject all that -they don’t want to spend their lives bowing to someone who isn’t there . In view of all that - “unbelievers make more sense; they are the ones who are ” reasonable “.
people turn away from god because they THINK there is no evidence for god. if only they spoke to me ! i agree with you on the point that yes, muslims do take their religion seroiusly and plays a huge part in their lives, but is that a bad thing? as for swalling everything they are taught, i may agree to an extent, but that can be applied to any ideology from islam to communism right upto atheism. as for me, i dont beleive islam is the truth simply because my parents were muslims. on te contrary, they have always told me to research and ask questions.
You use the word “science” a lot in conjunction with religion as if science and religion are contesting one -another for their value to man . As if science is the number one challenger of religion. As if they are fighting one another for answers to mankind’s dissatisfaction. Science never did claim to directly affect a human mind in regard to “spiritual” fulfillment, so why are you using it as an example of something that is deficient when it comes to the spiritual self ? You say that because science can explain “what” things are , but not “why” things are he cannot explain God or claim his existence. Well, maybe that is one reason why science is so much more sensible and believable than religion- it does NOT insist there IS a God- something there is no scientific evidence for. As a matter of fact, religion has not been able to produce “GOD” either ! Not any other way but through the imagination ! That God who is supposed to be what your religion can give to mankind cannot “cure” man of what you call an “intellectual crisis ” because he isn’t really there. That is—he is not there unless man is willing to pretend he is. Even then,what Islam can give to cure an “intellectual crisis ” ...what would that be ? It can give him a certain mental satisfaction by teaching him how to dream , but Goldenhawk—-NOT anything to do with the intellect !
you say that religion no other way “producing!” God other than through imagination. well if that was the case, i can give you of western scientists converting to islam. if there was no evidence for this, then why the interllectuals such as scientists converting? are you telling me that they are bad or crazy scientists?
I started taking an interest in all this stuff in year 2000, and I have been learning about it ever since. I am an advocate and spokesperson for women’s rights for one thing, and I have been tuned in to the situation between Islamic - West conflict ever since. And, in my opinion, Goldenhawk, Islam, the religion, is the religion that has the LEAST intellectual validity; the LEAST intellectual strength, the LEAST capacity to reason. I am not really a completely convinced atheist as of yet. I have left a little spot in my mind open to doubt, but for the most part, I think all religions are foolish, hypocritical , and lack any common sense. History tells us they can do a lot of harm. But most religions have improved so that by now they are more kind, less judgemental and compatible with humanity. They don’t hurt any more. You say “Islam exisists still in it’s revealed and original state ” . Yes, Goldenhawk- you are right about that !! That’s what’s the matter with it ! It never grew up with the other religions, and therefore can’t meet the expectations of modern life . It still hurts !!
but this is again, according to your opinion, which i respect but you have not given me a shred of evidence why islam is the LEAST in the departments which you have mentioned above. as for islam needing to “grow up” as you put it, well the brief answer to that would be, it does’n tneed to! islam is future proof. its the rest of makind that are playing the catch up game to islam. thats why the western civilised people are converting. it gives then the answer to ALL of their problems. athiesm does not. actually, atheism is more detrentmetal to mankind. it has no answers. it cant tell anyone whats right or wrong. if i was living in an atheist society and wanted to eat the flesh of dead human beings, nobody can tell me its wrong or judge me becuase there are no rules, only of the individuals opinions. its survival of the fittest. it dervives its own moral compass which is so dangerous. i can go on and on if you like abut the dangers of athiesm. think long and hard about what i just said,
Now, there is a lot more to discuss. Don’t take any of this as an attack on you , Goldenhawk; I am just trying to tell you my opinion and that you should do the wise thing and question that religion you are so enthused about.
its ok sheba, you have conduct this in a civilised manner and i am happy to take this further so long as it stays this way.
I’ll talk again soon,
Weather the storm—- who knows—you may have a vision—
Sheba
i look forward to it. peace
sheba:
Goldenhawk,
You have been reading me , but you are not hearing me !
Here we have a religion, Islam, that is regarded by most of the non-Muslim world as fanatic,brutal,backward and generally out -of-step with the modern world…., even the other religions. Yet you come up with this view that actually declares Islam is “the way forward “, and you say it is ahead of other religions etc. Obviously, you have been listening to someone who has sold you a bill of goods ! How old are you ? You probably haven’t become this close to learning about any faith before in your life , so when you learn about Islam you think it just has to be true. I don’t know if anyone cam convince you that Islam isn’t what they have told you it is, because you are what is called infatuated. You want very much to believe it, don’t you ? I know the feeling - that you have found something personally inspiring, and think it can really give your life some meaning.It holds an exciting promise for you . I know that belonging to something , whether it is a political group or a religion etc. gives a person a certain feeling of power. But you are all wrong about Islam ,in my opinion. Try and see it in perspective :
Non-Muslims ( and some Muslims too )after they learn about Islam, almost universally conclude that it is a way backward and retarded faith , still mired down with the old ideas the modern world walked away from long ago. Please ask yourself why they see it this way ! Do you think they are just prejudiced or something ? I think most people were just like me when they learned about Islam : they were shocked to realize how lost in the past and , frankly, horrible it was . You have got to find out why this is the mutual impression of the non-Muslim world.
And whoever told you Islam had anything in common with science was talking out of wishful thinking. As I said, Islam is backward, and one of the reasons for that is that they devoid of science. We hear, and you undoubtedly have too, a lot of stuff about the “Golden-age” of Islamic culture. To some extent Islam did flower in that respect, but MOST of what they take credit for was copied from other cultures and their achievements, including the scientific ones. The architecture, art, music,medical inventions etc. were inspired and established by non-Islamic people. The Muslims were able to draw on and advance because of Byzantine and other civilizations. Not long after the alleged “golden age of culture” Islam went into a period of intelectual stagnation from which it never recovered. It went into a steady decline - a decline that separated it from the productive and progressive world ...and that includes scientific accomplishments. You should understand Goldenhawk, that Islam and science are pretty much strangers.
And if by “science” you are thinking about things like psychology and science -of-the-mind , well this should tell you and everyone else a lot : if Islamic culture included that kind of science HOW COME THEY NEVER LEARNED TO UNDERSTAND HUMAN NATURE ???????? Sorry for the caps, but I needed to get your attention and “speak” in a very pronounced way. So what in heck am I talking about ?? I would like to write more now, but it is way past midnight and I have had a long day working with the Mason Shriner’s wives on charity plans etc. for Haiti, where the dusty and bloody dead bodies are strewn and stacked on the streets. It is an awful, awful thing. So I’ll write more later.
Sheba
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Sorry sheba for the late reply, i have been busy and i have to write this quickly because i am going to be busy again for the next few days. i have read your posts and i have to say that i am dissapointed with your comments about your “research” on islamic history.
You have made some decent points in your overall posts, but when it came to your comments of Islamic history, in particularly where you mentioned islam “borrowing” from the nations like the Byzantine empire. i am sorry to tell you this sheba but you really need to research history again
i dont have time to go into your other comments about history which, i beleive, is very flawed. Sorry but i really have to go now but please give me facts about history to the relevent arguments you are making. sorry, if i offended you but it was not intentional.
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later... Posted: 31 January 2010 04:35 PM
hi guys. sorry for my absence. i was really busy and still am, but quickly wanted to say hello to everyone. have not read all the posts since my long break from here, but as i recall, i was debating with sheba. so i want to carry from there. anyway have to go now and take care everyone (even to the atheists who think they know it all about islam) and will be back soon to answer all your questions regarding the only alternative to mankind, which is islam !
i am still busy and will try to participate at least once a week
The point for goldenhawk and actually for many Muslims is to realize that while their religion did experience this “golden age” that has passed and can’t be brought back by trying to return to the past.
the “golden age” will return and take its righful place as the only kingdom of god as promised in our texts. i agree with you that it wont be brought back by returning to the past, it doesnt need to. allah’s help is coming soon.
Any renaissance of Islamic culture is going to require an adaptation of the basic attitudes and practices of the culture that surrounds the religion so that it can fit into the present day world.
islam does not need to adapt to please the desires of the people. to fit into the present day world. it has all the requirements and answers to fullfill the needs of the people from 1400 years ago right up until today. its just people are getting brainwashed by all the jewish controlled media. they need to look at it from the islamic point of view and then they will realise its not as bad as they once percieved.
The Scientific Revolution wouldn’t have happened without the Renaissance and one of the major things taking place then was exactly that, rediscovering the “wealth” of the past but adapting it to the present. The cultural attitude in the Renaissance was that they were rediscovering the true philosophy and knowledge of the Greeks and Romans but what was actually happening was that this knowledge was being reinterpreted in their own humanistic terms. Islam needs a similar “revolution,” which would reduce the dangers you worry about to about the same as the dangers we face from Unitarians.
there is no scientific revolution. on the contrary, the scientists are now accepting what islam has been saying for the past 1400 years about orgins of life and many other scientific discoveries which science has to to accept today.
in your science there is no right or wrong on how to live morally in this life ? i can do anything and you cant pass your judgement on me. i can eat dead people, walk naked, steal, murder (hey its survival of the fittest right ?), i can do anything i want and you cant tell me its wrong can you? i can turn around and say who are you to tell me whats wrong? i think its right. i live by my morel code and you live by yours.
do you understand what i am trying to get at here ? want me to elaborate on this point further and explain the detremental consquences if we all became athiests ?
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sheba:
Greetings Goldenhawk,
Peace.
Now that we have talked about the past and established that Islam did indeed have a certain impressive “dynasty” in the past that was something to be proud of , we should move on to the present, because it’s today that really matters .
what was impressive about it ? you think its impressive because it conquered so much of the planet ? well in that case, the british, hitler, romans, alexandra were all impressive to you. but not according to me. i dont see conquering lands as impressive. i see what good morals, contributions to the people of the land, new innovations and ideas, the solution to their questions and problems, looking after the society, treatlng everyone fairly, strict justice system, priority in looking after the poor (as opposed to capitalism which is run to exploiting the poor)...i can go on and on (maybe a whole new page) but to me thats impressive.that’s why i think you have failed to understand this religion. you saw it as might, i sawit as right
Hawk, I’ve already told you that I am very anti-Islam, so do not be surprised if I sound that way. You should understand this also : that if you think you can come here and stand an inkling of a chance to change our minds about your religion you are oh, so wasting your time. We do not dislike Islam just because we are against all religion, but because we know what Islam is and couldn’t possibly accept it unless we are willing to go back a thousand years and tell ourselves retardation is a good thing.
well at least i admire your honesty regarding your hostility to islam. at least i know where you stand. who is this we? is it the “royal we”? if not, then i think you should speak for yourself only unless you have been appointed to speak on behalf of the rest. i am not here to convince you that islam is best for you. even at the time of the holy prophet (S), people did not convert and rejected islam. its not about the numbers game here. its about the truth. as for your comment about retardation, well then you have implied that all those who have converted in the past and even now to islam are all retards icluding scientists, mathmaticians, judges? come on that sheba, that was a dumb statement and wont hold in any court of law!
I have already told you the worst thing that could happen to this world would be for it to fall under the thumb of an oppressive religion. Nothing could be as bad as that unless it be a natural disaster like we are hit by an asteroid or a catastrophic earthquake that swallows up all of humanity. Sometime I think I would rather choose the earthquake, Islam is just that bad
oppresive relgion ?! your having a laugh arnt you? islam gives MORE rights (beleive it or not, and i can disscuss this in details with you if you want) than any other religion. let me give you just one example from litterly hundreds about oppression. of some countries in europe, did you know it is a criminal offence (punishable upto 10 years in prison) to deny the holocaust? Thats right ! just imagine that you simply dont want to beleive in something and you get jailed for it and you call that freedom ?! now who is more oppressive? you want more examples? as for the rest of your comment, no offence but i think you have been watching to much fox news and CNN !
! Now- I am not a mean or unkind person who likes to discourage people from their dreams and aspirations or hurt others in any way…so don’t believe those are my reasons for telling you all this. I just want to see you understand the truth and examine your religion very carefully before you decide it is for you.
i am not a lemming or a headless chicken who is blindly following islam. i have examined other religions and islam. i had many complex questions and doubts at the begiining but after due time i was given reasonable answers to my questions and doubts (no i wanst brainwashed !) infact islam is the ONLY religion that encourages one to ponder, reflect and question things. so i have stutied it carefully looking at it from pro and against arguments. maybe you should do the same instead of obtaining your “information” about this religion from anti-islam sources
As I mention a few post back, I think Islam is a trap and the people that are encouraging you to make it your life are not so concerned with you as they are just finding another sucker to support it , because they believee they have business to do and there is strength in numbers. The trouble is, their business is part of a plan to overpower the West, and make it so hard for any non-Muslim to resist their demands that they would be willing to appease you rather than suffer Muslim hair-trigger wrath.Think I don’t know about this ? HUH ? Think I don’t know what’s on their agenda ? I sure do and resent their taking advantage of our tolerant and generous ways, when all the time it is their desire to hold power over us and subject us to their backward, restrictive,burdensome, miserable, miserable ways of life !
firstly, i strongly advise you to stop watching or reading these conspiracy stories. you sound like mulder from the X-FILES ! honestly ! islam will take over the west and it is already having a impact by people flocking to this religion, not from compulsion, but by choice and common sense.
how is islam backward ? now or in the past? please explain. if you mean by scientific discoveries, then there have been many muslim scientists past, and present to have contibuted to the fields of science. if you mean socially and womens rights etc…well we look after our women. we cover them up in decent dress that does not attract the attention of the evil eye. we guard and protect their modesty. you have exploited your women and see them as sex objects. you cant even sell a car without a naked women standing next to it. you have degraded women to rock bottom and use them. rape, sexual harrassment, bullying, adultery, domestic abuse are huge problems in the west.
i can give facts and figures and then lets compare them to islam shall we? what have you done about it? nothing ! you just hope that the problem will go away, well it wont ! becuase you dont have the answer. as for you statements on how islam is “restrictive,burdensome, miserable, miserable ways of life “, well i think i am going to need to write a novel about how mis informed you really are.
Sure, those people you have been listening to have their preposterous dreams of gaining power, and the whole objective is to become so big, so weighty, so threatening that they run right over our freedom and life of modern enlightenment . And they do this all in a covert, non-terrorist way.
Freedom? there is no freedom liek the way you are portraying it to be. sure, you can have the freedom to become a peadaphile. you have the freedom to commit anti-social behaviour such as adultery, Or do you mean the freedom of detaining somebody without charge for years like in guantanmo bay? you mean the freedom where police can lock you up in the UK for 28 days withot charge only on SUSPICION! is that the freedom you are talking about ? you want me to go on and tell you more ?
lets suppose i agree with you for a moment. in the last few years, this ‘Freedom’ has been eroding away from you slowly but surely. the patriot act gives you less freedom than before and beleive me, its going to get worse. the west is becoming a police state for you to protect your ‘freedom’
this is being taken away from you right from under your feet and then it says it’s the fault of the muslims and you guys are fulling for this rubbish ! in the west, where power means your above the law. where might is right. where the USA can veto any country (and you call that democracy ?!!) the USA thinks it can bomb us, kill us women and children at will and it then dares to call us terrorists while playing the victim card? now who is being brianwashed ?
So does this sound pretty damned nice to you ? Let me guess that it doesn’t sound bad, you’re thinking it might be nice to be a part of such a grand operation, maybe ?? The trouble is , Goldenhawk, you will also be a part of a lifestyle that controls you and submerges you into a life of religious tyranny—a virtual straight-jacket , and remember you are supposed to adhere to all they teach you, and you can’t worm out of it . YOU WILL HAVE TO DECIDE YOU BELIEVE with all your heart that something that is at odds with the modern world, out of step with cool modern lifestyle we have and enjoy so much ! BEFORE you decide this is your kind of ideal; your kind of government, your kind of good sense—FIND OUT JUST WHAT ISLAM REALLY MEANS and how it operates.
cool modern lifestyle? again, i dont want to repeat myself here as i have explained this time and time again in this and other posts.
This is enough today—but I’m going to give you the cold hard facts ; the whole enchilada; the list of sin against humanity that Islam really is, the ice-water bath of rude awakening . And tell your old bearded friends, the child seducers,the deceivers,the brain-dead dreaming dupes praying five times a day to someone they never even saw or met, and who want to make a praying -puppet out of YOU too-,—-that THERE ARE some people who KNOW HOW THEY OPERATE AND WHAT THEY PLAN TO DO . And tell them to quit kidding themselves because the sane,morally advanced,enlightened, modern world ; the non- Muslim world , HAS SOMETHING MAGIC THAT THEY WILL NEVER HAVE , and our stronghold, our true mantle of godliness , WILL BE THE KISS OF DEATH to the morbid operations of Islam eventually .
well i cant wait for you to give me these cold hard facts. thats why i am patiently waiting for and having this debate with you. so fars its all opinions and nothing more. actually you did present some of the ‘Facts’ according to you in regards to islamic history, but even then you have been proved wrong not only by me but by others in this thread. so i want you t go and really study carefully before you bring out any ‘facts’ about islam. as for the rest of your last paragraph, well less said about this last statement the better ! no offence !
take care and peace !
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teuchter:
And in the west, of course, when a woman is raped, we prosecute and punish the male rapist.
In Islamic countries, they prosecute and punish the victim for fornication. And she can’t testify because the word of a woman carries no weight in Sharia law.
what an idiot you are ! you dont even know your own statistics in your own country do you ? tell me mr know it all, how many males actually get prosucuted ? how many get caught ? how many are found guilty when it was really the woman making it all up?
well the simple truth is, more rapes that prosuctions. and your justice system is so terrible. when a man gets released, the statistics show back in 2004 that he is 88% likely to commit rape again. so you know full well that chances are high for him to rape another woman again and then you let him go free ! what kind of stupid flawed law is that ?
for for your second statement (”In Islamic countries, they prosecute and punish the victim for fornication”) , show me just one independant credible source where that is true. just one ! but i dont think you can because you like making things up. any excuse to have a go at islam. this shows your prejudice. and lastly, let me get through to that thick monkey brain of yours, women have more rights in islam and they do in any other religion. but you cant see that as your prejudice is blinding you to the truth.
sheba:
Greetings again Goldenhawk-
It seems like a good idea to start this post and my list of reasons why Islam is wrong and why the non-Muslim world will never willingly accept it .
I see the subject of women has been brought up and you have made a heroic effort to tell this forum why Muslim women are treated fairly, respectfully and they are just as free as any female in other societies. I have got to hand it to you—you have somehow managed to squeeze blood out of a turnip !
@sheba…i really dont know what book you have been reading. maybe is called “hate islam and dont question”. you all keep saying how islam treats women badly. well let me briefly tell you guys something and wake you up from this brianwashing you guys have been fed with. all you need to look at pre-islamic arabia before the holy prophet muhammad (S) came. the arabs used to treat their women in a awful way. i dont want to go into details, but enough is the fact that they used to bury their girls alive ! when the holy prophet (S) started preaching islam, he condemned this action and had this savage practice stopped the moment he was able to.
islam has given women so many rights which you guys either dont know, or are delibratly hiding this fact. however, i do agree that is some countries muslims abuse their women. but is that the fault of islam? i can show you so many cases where in the west, men abuse, rape and even kill their wifes. can i say this is the fauly of christianity or in the name of atheism. infact if you guys open up your eyes (just for once), the problem of domestic abuse is greater in the west than in muslim countries. in the UK, this has become an epidemic. in certain places of USA and western countries, women cant walk alone at night dues to their fear of rape etc and you call that freedom. compare the abuse and rapes of the western women to muslim womens and the facts are self-evident.. the west has actually degraded the image of women. they are seen nothing but as sex objects or if you want to seel something. you call women in the west had no right to vote upto a 100 years ago. they dont have equal rights in terms of pay, privileges. although its in the equal rights act, men still have the better posts. so fix your own house before looking at others
anyway, islam has given rights to women before the west had ever dreamed up of it. we respect our women. as for the accusation, that we force to cover them up, why dont you ever bother to ask any western women who has converted to islam, and ask her that which muslim had forced her to cover up? which muslim has forced her to dress up from that bikini or mini skirt she used to wear ? she will tell you that she does it becuase its the right thing to do for a women and it guards her modesty and dignity. but you guys cant see that. you look at the 1% who are the bad muslims and say the rest of the 99% are doing the same.
i can write a few more posts just on this issue, but i beleive this should suffice for the sincere reader.
Skipshot:
In no way does sheba speak for me. While she is correct many of us here don’t like religion in any form, I do not share her belief Islam is positively evil.
well she has made her views clear in regards to islam, which is admiralble due to her honesty, but she is brainwashed like most here but i am not here to convert anyone here to be a muslim.
Restrictive is more to my mind, with the same capacity to restrict as any other religion. Religion is a prison from which I escaped long ago, and there’s no way I’ll be convinced to go back of my free will, and if you can accept that we’ll get along just fine.
if you dont beleive, then its your loss, not mine. if you want to remain as you are, i have no problems with you other than sypmathy. its your choice. allah has made it clear in the holy quran that there is not compulsion in relgion. so yes, i hope we can get along fine.
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sheba:
Hawk,
If there is one subject that you can’t argue and come out on top it’s the argument about Muslim and women. What have I been reading ? Everything I could get my hands on for a decade. That includes all kinds of research on the computer. And a lot of other stuff. To say that Muslim women have freedom is like saying a bird can fly without wings. What is , is- you can’t twist it around to be anything else. Perhaps it really makes sense to you that women should cover up all over and that it’s necessary to protect her “modesty ” and “dignity ” . Maybe you really have been convinced it’s that way—that it’s alright and women wouldn’t complain about that . But what you must understand is this : the rest of the world doesn’t see it that way. Sure, we used to have that attitude about women years ago—; it was considered “cheap ” or “shocking ” or “shameless” to show your legs. But , holy heaven my dear young fellow—that was a hundred years ago ! We graduated from that ! People came to understand that nothing horrible was going to happen if a woman showed a lot of her body. There was a time in Christian society that it was considered “naughty” to wear lipstick and powder , or to get a bobbed and pixie-like haircut. But eventually women kicked those old taboos and were allowed more freedom. Can’t you see where they naturally would look on that kind of thing today and wonder what in h-ll ails “those people ” to dress like they do ? Understand that Goldenhawk, the free world sees Muslim women and their habits ( as dictated by religion ) as ridiculous. Can you grasp that ? We, in the non-Muslim world don’t feel the need to cover ourselves all up to be “modest “. We don’t need to dress up like nuns to keep our “dignity ” And men don’t think we have to cover ourselves to be those things either .
You Muslim men tell yourselves women must cover all up to be chaste and modest, but the real reason they insist a woman cover up is that they can’t control their sexual urges if they see a woman’s body or even body parts. They are weak ! France has been talking about banning the burka. But they are still hesitating because they are afraid if those women go without a burks and show their arms and legs etc. they will get raped. Women in the non-Muslim world don’t have to worry about that because they know they can trust their men. So that idea that a woman has to go around shrouded in a big black tent to be “modest ” is a crock of self-deception.
And you make a mistake when you try to prove something by pointing out what happened in the past. What happened or didn’t happen hundreds of years ago doesn’t change how things are today. You make another mistake when you start trying to prove something by talking about other societies, like those in America and Europe. You, and everyone else should realize this : that there are cases of rape and female abuse in every society. That’s just a part of life as a human being , sad but true. There are exceptions , but down through the ages women havebeen violated with sexual assault. AND MEN ARE RESPONSIBLE NOT WOMEN ! SO QUIT blaming a woman for being assaulted ! ALL countries and societies have some rape-some a lot; some very little, but they all suffer some rape. So don’t go pointing out America or other Western countries as unique or especially bad because they have their share of that crime. America , by the way, has NO MORE sexual assaults than any other country. And when they do have such a thing it is usually under unusual circumstances. Men getting drunk , misfits who roam the neighborhoods, and things like that. When women do get violated it is USUALLY NOT because she shows too much body or is dressed to look sexy. Men in the non-Muslim world think nothing oof that because they know if they are going to have sex with a women she’s got to be someone he feels special about ; with some exceptions it has nothing to do with her showing her body or looking “sexy ” . They tell you “shameless” women in places like America are inviting rape, but that’s a lot of malarkey——; those men friends of yours tell you that because that helps them save face, it’s an excuse that lets them off the hook .
I have got to go, but Hawk—please consider these things. Try to grasp WHY women alkl over the world thing something like a Muslim woman’s burka is foolish and a burden inflicted on women.
you keep mentioning that women are forced to cover up etc….well why dont you ask a western women in the USA who has converted by her OWN CHOICE and wearing the burqa, and covering herself up when she goes out. i want to ask is who forced her ? idid she cover up by choice or by force? see you dont see this point do you ?
if you look at the statistics about women getting raped before world war II and getting raped today (after the “sixties’ sex revolution), you will discover that there is a big difference. its worse now!!! want to knoe why ? its because you have droped you modesty, look like tarts and sluts so it’s no wonder most men see you as sex objects and nothing more and some of you get raped. be honest, when you half naked (showing your “stuff”) in public, what do you really think goes on in a man’s mind? trust me, he is wont be thinking your his mother or sister, he will have only one thing in mind. im sure you can guess what that will be.
also when was the last time you heard of a women get raped who was wearing a burqa ? i will tell you why. because when a women is covered up, the chances for lust and evil actions are greatly reduced. this was proven in a recent poll / survey. islam told you to cover up, not to oppress you but it was because for your OWN benefit, but no, you wanted this freedom ! well you got this “freedom” which you carved for a long time. but remember one thing; when you walking down the street (especially certain places in the USA and europe, even during the day), look out because you never know what can happen to you.
i’m sorry to have been blunt and brutal to you. i respect you but also you havnt asnwered my questions and i dont think you can. i beleive you have tunnel vision. your just looking for a fight, not to understand from the islamic point of view, but by those who are hostile to islam. your never going to learn this way. this blind hatred and prejudice needs to be done with if you are serious about understanding islam.
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goodgraydrab:
What you should recognize and admit is that you haven’t examined all the independent data related to the crime and circumstances of rape worldwide with respect to the victims and perpetrators. Here’s where you and your religion fit in. It is not surprising that you (male model) are unwilling to take responsibility for your actions ... but that’s what religion is all about.
since when has Wikipedia become and independant and credible source of information ?
well i am not trying to justify the actions of men who commit rape, regardless of wether they are muslim or not. all i am saying is that “western” women tend to get raped more because of their “exposure”. when was the last you you heard of a nun getting raped ? rape has reached epidemic levels in europe and its increasing by the day. i wonder why? can anypone expalin this ?. i beleive, its mens nature to think of sex when they see a “sexy” woman infront of them flirting or not and wearing next to nothing. i ask you this. if you leave some uncovered meat outside you house and a cat comes and eats the meat, are you going to blame the cat ? will it be the cat’s fault ?
sheba:
Hawk,
If there is one subject that you can’t argue and come out on top it’s the argument about Muslim and women. What have I been reading ? Everything I could get my hands on for a decade. That includes all kinds of research on the computer. And a lot of other stuff. To say that Muslim women have freedom is like saying a bird can fly without wings.
i really do wonder what you have been reading on the Internet ! have you been to any islamic bookstores ? l give me ONE credible book from a musl point of view which you have read from start to finish. i dont want many, just give me one. i think you have been reading anti-islamic books and that’s why you are filled with prejudice, that’s why you cant refute my arguments.
What is , is- you can’t twist it around to be anything else. Perhaps it really makes sense to you that women should cover up all over and that it’s necessary to protect her “modesty ” and “dignity ” . Maybe you really have been convinced it’s that way—that it’s alright and women wouldn’t complain about that . But what you must understand is this : the rest of the world doesn’t see it that way. Sure, we used to have that attitude about women years ago—; it was considered “cheap ” or “shocking ” or “shameless” to show your legs. But , holy heaven my dear young fellow—that was a hundred years ago ! We graduated from that !
yes you certainly have “graduated” haven’t you. you have less clothes on now. you flirt more. dress up like sluts. have no shame or self respect. no wonder you get raped or at least considered to be nothing more but just sex objects. (i don’t mean personally you. i mean western women in general)
Understand that Goldenhawk, the free world sees Muslim women and their habits ( as dictated by religion ) as ridiculous. Can you grasp that ? We, in the non-Muslim world don’t feel the need to cover ourselves all up to be “modest “. We don’t need to dress up like nuns to keep our “dignity ” And men don’t think we have to cover ourselves to be those things either .
which free world you talking about ? and if that is the case, then so be it. however, i don’t want to live in this free world where you can “do” what you like and then reap the consequences. I’m sorry but you have no dignity. you can never gain respect and dignity by looking like a tart or a slut. men don’t want you to cover up. that’s the whole point. they can look at your “parts” for free and use and abuse you at will.
Women in the non-Muslim world don’t have to worry about that because they know they can trust their men. So that idea that a woman has to go around shrouded in a big black tent to be “modest ” is a crock of self-deception.
western women can trust their men ? you have to be joking me ! all you need to do is pick up the paper or watch the news to see the cases of adultery, fornication, rape in the “western world”.
And you make a mistake when you try to prove something by pointing out what happened in the past. What happened or didn’t happen hundreds of years ago doesn’t change how things are today. You make another mistake when you start trying to prove something by talking about other societies, like those in America and Europe. You, and everyone else should realize this : that there are cases of rape and female abuse in every society. That’s just a part of life as a human being , sad but true. There are exceptions , but down through the ages women have-been violated with sexual assault. AND MEN ARE RESPONSIBLE NOT WOMEN ! SO QUIT blaming a woman for being assaulted ! ALL countries and societies have some rape-some a lot; some very little, but they all suffer some rape. So don’t go pointing out America or other Western countries as unique or especially bad because they have their share of that crime. America , by the way, has NO MORE sexual assaults than any other country. And when they do have such a thing it is usually under unusual circumstances. Men getting drunk , misfits who roam the neighborhoods, and things like that. When women do get violated it is USUALLY NOT because she shows too much body or is dressed to look sexy. Men in the non-Muslim world think nothing oof that because they know if they are going to have sex with a women she’s got to be someone he feels special about ; with some exceptions it has nothing to do with her showing her body or looking “sexy ” . They tell you “shameless” women in places like America are inviting rape, but that’s a lot of malarkey——; those men friends of yours tell you that because that helps them save face, it’s an excuse that lets them off the hook .
this is my whole point. you have lost in you own argument here. by not learning lessons from the past, you have tripped over the same stone twice. the past contains lessons for the wise. in the past, there were less cases of women exploitation, less rape, less sexual harassment. would you like proof of this? of ccourse men are responsible in most cases, but do you want to know why? because half of the time, you indirectly are asking for it ! i am not saying that in the past there was no rape. of ourse there was, but it has increased since the sixties. want to know why?
because men have cleverly gave you this “freedom” and have exploited this to the maximum. but you women don’t realise this. you are “free” right? well then be prepared to “get it”. the men have got you naked, made you lose self respect, made you look like cheap and dirty sluts, look at you with one thing in their minds and eventually, get you drunk and then sleep with you. you have made it so easy. tell me something, if you leave some uncovered meat outside your house and the cat comes and eats it, will you blame the cat ?
as for the crimes rates you have mentioned, well i really think you should look at the facts. compare the USA with other countries and you will see, it has the most crime (including rape and adultery) than any other nation. and guess what? its getting worse !
I have got to go, but Hawk—please consider these things. Try to grasp WHY women alkl over the world thing something like a Muslim woman’s burka is foolish and a burden inflicted on women.
our women rather look like being foolish, than to get used and abused like you women in the west. as i said before, i don’t mean you. when i talk about women in the west, i mean generally.. please dont take it personally. take care.
can zen:
You said: if you leave some uncovered meat outside you house and a cat comes and eats the meat, are you going to blame the cat ? will it be the cat’s fault ?
So, let me get this right golden, you are saying that men in general are no more intelligent than hungry alley cats? I all men are really that stupid, morally incompetent, and driven purely by instinct is it going to serve any purpose (as far as progress is concerned) to force women to remain covered up from head to toe? Surely, you don’t believe that all men are like that? For instance, would you personally jump on some half-dressed woman and force her to have sex against her will if you saw her walking down the street? I think you are underestimating the intelligence and the moral aptitude of males in general with your backward muslim social rules. Please evolve yourself.
i am not saying ALL men. i have not accused you or anyone here. i was talking in the general sense. i dont look at these half naked women with the intenton of rape or adultery. but then again, most men are not like me. i beleive given half a chance, they will take the opportunity if they know they can get away with it. i mean who will refuse a free lunch?
anyway, we dont force our women to cover up. they do that out of THEIR choice because they value modesty and dignity. unlike your women, who are the uncovered meat and begging for the “wild cat” to take them away. as for you point in lack of progression, well i disagree with that also. covering up a woman does not stop progress. on the contrary, it increases peace and harmony between communities by commiting less adultery and rape ect…one just needs to pick up a paper or watch the news and my point will become self-evident.
You paragraph is completely convoluted golden, you end with the proviso “who will refuse a free lunch” yet just above that you have claimed that you would refuse that lunch. So am I to take this as implying that you are somehow better than “men in general” or are you just morally superior in general?
look here dummy, if you bother to read my post in this forum, i have made it clear. i beleive i am morally superior to the men in general. thats reason for this is because i follow the rules and regulations given to me by god who is the all knowing, the all wise. otherwise if i was an athiest and if i raped or commited adultery, i would not care about it to much because there would be no consequences in the hereafter. thats what islam oes to you. it takes the animal instincts out from you and makes you a better person. one only needs to look at the time during the holy prophet muhammad (S) and early islamic history to comapre the crime and moral levels of the people.
W. Collins:
You said: ...thats reason for this is because i follow the rules and regulations given to me by god who is the all knowing, the all wise.
That makes you no better than people who worshiped Zeus and led a good life, people who worshiped Odin and led a good life, or people who worship no supernatural being a lead a good life.
@W. Collins....you keep mentioning the word “good life”. i want to know makes a good life? can you expalin that to me ? if you mean that i should not commit adultery or something, then who gives you the right to tell me its bad?
you say commiting crimes is a bad thing ? how do you get to decide what is a good crime or a bad crime. explain it to me. as for the superior morality in Muslim countries, well one only needs to look at early islamic history and there are plenty of examples around.
i do accept however, that there are lots of bad muslims, but that does not make islam bad. similarly, if an athienst was evil, i am sure i would not say athiesm is bad based one one persons actions.
You should try to cause as little harm to others as necessary. Empathy is all it takes, and that’s natural in humans, the ones who don’t have it are usually dangerous individuals.
but what you may consider harmful, other may not see it that way and vice versa. also who decides what empathy is or what are the lvels of it? how do you know those who dont have empathy? they say they have, how can you prove them wrong ? your statement is baseless and unreasonable according to athiest doctrine, if there is such a thing.
Laws are generally restrictions on actions that cause harm to others. There are, of course, some frivolous laws, but having rules helps us survive in groups, live many mammals.
from a athiest point of view, why should you obey any law ? who decides what law and rules are good or bad ? who decides what law is? another human being ? is it because majority of the people have voted for them and they have a right to make the laws on behalf of the people? if that is the case then hitler was right when he became ruler.
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burt:
Once upon a time there was a man renown for his wisdom. Scholars disliked him because he attracted their students. Finally a distinguished scholar challenged him to a debate. The wise man accepted. The time for the debate was set and the wise3 man showed up at the appointed hour with some of his students. There were several hundred in the audience. The scholar was allowed to speak first. He began talking, presenting his case. After several minutes the wise man stood up and pointed a finger at the scholar. This so unnerved him that he faltered in his prepared presentation, stuttered, and then turned and ran from the auditorium. Later, a student of the wise man asked him why he had done this so dramatic action when he could easily have refuted the scholar’s arguments in debate. The wise man replied: “Debating him would not have any value, he was trying to win the argument, not discover truth.”
you guys argue more than me. no matter what i say or regardless of the facts, you wont beleive or dont want to beleive. you guys are the brainwashed. no i. by the way, nice rant on the closing paragraph
In Buddhism there is a saying - “The intelligent person understands cause and effect and so fears to do wrong.”
an intelligent person can be only those who beleive in god, not reject him.
Goldenhawk doesn’t need to understand cause and effect because Allah tells him what to do. Goldenhawk doesn’t need to be intelligent to avoid getting hurt. All he needs to do is know the Koran by heart. This is called programming. In the future, robots will be programmed so that they don’t hurt themselves or others. Programming isn’t the same as intelligence. Programming isn’t the same as feeling. Programming isn’t the same as empathy. Programming isn’t the same as compassion.
well i can say that you are “programmed not to beleive in god. so how can you prove your case with that tpye of logic?
If Goldenhawk did not have Islam, would he commit all kinds of crimes? If that is the case, then I’m glad he has been programmed. His programming has made him into an arrogant bigot, but at least it has prevented him (he says) from running around doing awful things.
well define what a crime is? thats my whole argument with you apes. who decides what is a crime ? also if i am programmed not to commit any crimes because of the fear of god, then surely thats not a bad thing then is it ?
unsmoked:
No, that’s not a bad thing, especially since on your own you don’t know what a crime is. Unfortunately, a lot of your young brethren, bobbing their heads like machines as they memorize the Koran, are being programmed by their teachers to blow themselves up on buses and other crowded places. Is this an example of Allah deciding what a crime is?
what is crime according to you? so far you have not given me a defination of a crime. also what may be a crime to you, may not be a crime to another and vice versa. like i said, you athiests cant pass any judgement because you follow your own personal morals. even athiests wont come to common terms on this issue. so come back to me once you have a proper answer. as for blowing or killing people up in the name of religion, thats not something new is it? even a non relgious person can commit attrocoties. want examples ?
The next time you see on the news (any news, Al Jazera will work) that someone has committed a crime like this, please consider the question that Sam Harris asks: “Why is it so easy (when you hear about someone blowing themselves up in a crowded place), to guess the person’s religion?”
well thats islamaphobia for you. also instead of just blaming the murderer, why dont you look at the real culprit behind that murderer. what conditions were made prior to the killing that let this person to kill. you are very good at guessing the name of the religion of the murderer but not the cause. it’s because you dont want to know the cause, because the real reason behind it are the US and israel. until you find the root cause, these attoricites will continue for a long time. i beleive all this terrorism will stop when the real terrorists are put behind bars. thats the USA and israel.
“The young man boards the bus as it leaves the terminal. He wears an overcoat. Beneath his overcoat, he is wearing a bomb . . .
“The bus is crowded and headed for the heart of the city . . . The young man smiles. With the press of a button he destroys himself . . . and twenty others on the bus . . . further casualties on the street and in the surrounding cars. All has gone according to plan.
“The young man’s parents soon learn of his fate. Although saddened to have lost a son, they feel tremendous pride at his accomplishment. They know that he has gone to heaven and prepared the way for them to follow. He has also sent his victims to hell for eternity. It is a double victory. The neighbors find the event a great cause for celebration and honor the young man’s parents by giving them gifts of food and money . . .
“Is there anything that we can infer about him on the basis of his behavior? Was he popular in school? Was he rich or was he poor? Was he of low or high intelligence? His actions leave no clue at all. Did he have a college education? Did he have a bright future as a mechanical engineer? His behavior is simply mute on questions of this sort, and hundreds (of questions) like them. Why is it so easy then . . . to guess the young man’s religion?” (end of Sam Harris quote)
Goldenhawk, the next time you see this kind of event in the news, will you feel pride in the accomplishment of the ‘martyr?’ Do you feel that God is asking them to do these things?
During the next hundred years more than 8 billion people are going to die, including yourself and everyone on this forum. In your opinion, why does God presently want to select some innocent men, women, and children, and have them blown up or horribly injured by vengeful Muslims?
look here dummy, i have said that islam does not condone murdering innocent people. how many times do i have to repeat myself so it stays in your thick monkey skull ? i condemn in the most strongest terms WHOEVER kills innocnent people. there people are using religion to justify their heinous crimes. it could have been any other religion or no relgiion at all. always judge islam or any religion by it’s teachings and not the people. can say all athiests are bad because of stalin, MAO or any other leader? can i christianity is bad because of the enquistion or because of the foreign policy of the US ?
more importantly, can i say all americans are bad because some bored kid goes into a school and starts killing the students ? dont tell me they were muslims or were brainwashed ! infact did you know when the columbine massacre occured, one of the students didnt even beleive in god. so who or what got him brianwashed to commit that crime ?
ChaosRules:
I’ll give this one a shot, against my better judgement. I believe you when you say that Islam in itself does not condone murdering innocent people. That may be so, but for some reason redical Isla murder innocent people on a regular basis, and they use Islamic teachings as rationale to carry out these murders. One of Sam Harris’s biggest points is that moderate religious people are not doing enough to stop their own fundamentalist sub-groups from causing very serious problems.
well people of different faith regularly murder people, all they need is an excuse. as for your sam harris comment, firstly, there is no extremism or moderates. thats the image your receiving and getting brainwashed by it. there is only one islam and one way of life. if people carry out atrocities in the name of religion, then they dont belong to that religion. why cant you guys understand this point? also if there is such a thing as moderates, as sam harris puts it, then what can they do? what can you do about your hawks in the republican who launched an illegal invasion or iraq? who murdered and killed innocent men, women and children? who condoned rendition flights, who dick cheney said torture (such as water boarding) is acceptable.
what did you guys (liberals) do to stop it? nothing ! in-fact you re-elected bush again ! even george bush (who has an IQ of 0) made a good statement for once in his life. although he still stuttered and could not formulate a sentence correctly, but the idiot did manage to say, and i quote: “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me”. so your people re-elected bush twice knowing what kind of person he and his neocons were. i wonder where the real shame lies ? the government or the people ?
I will not discuss Stalin, Mao, etc because that has been refuted at length at multiple times. What you fail to realize here is that the vast majority of the posters here have a big problem not only with Islam, but will ALL religions which affect our lives in whatever negative way.
i have not seen any reasonable refutations regarding Stalin, Mao, etc because you cant justify it. you try to tip toe around that subject. i do accept you have a problem with all religions including islam. but how does islam impact your lives in a negative way? i have yet to see this. all i read, is hearsay, mis quotes, information taken from cnn and foxnews. nothing conclusive to say why islam will have a detrimental impact on your lives. no replies so far. just absurd theories.
The most extreme example these days happen to be radical Isla blowing people up, but most of us condone any violent or stupid act that is perpretrated because of religion. No one likes the fact that some kids go and shoot up their schools, but those acts are certainly not caused by secular writings in a book. Can yo understand the difference between killing someone because you’re depressed and fucked up, and killing someone because you feel that it is the will of Allah or whoever your God is?
well you have accepted that those school kids shooting up their school did not have any religion, then this shows that there will be people, religion or not, will kill people regardless. another incident of Tiananmen Square in china 1989. that was an athiest government massacring students in the name of NO RELIGION. this proves that people can be evil without belief in God. this should be enough to reflect upon if you had common sense and were not so biased. also i am glad you mentioned the word “these days”. why dont you ask yourself why its happening more “these days” and not before? i will leave you to figure that one out yourself, but i will hint at something for you to get started. independently and impatirally study the US foreign policy and israel issue. once you have studied this, then i am sure you will understand why a lot of bad things are happening “these days”.
Gila Guerilla:
On the other side of the coin, if I, (a mere atheist monkey), raped someone or committed adultery, I would wonder how the blazes it happened, because I would not do those things.‡ I believe that they are wrong, because I am a thinking human being – no god required.
To say that one has superior morality, and that only “God” keeps you from committing crimes etc. reflects very poorly on you, (and I don’t believe it anyway). You are saying that you are a repressed killer, rapist, sodomite, adulterer or whatever, but that you don’t do any of these things, goldenhawk786, because of “God”. That makes some lousy kind of an unthinking person. THINK. I bet that you don’t really believe that you are a repressed criminal at all.
Remember: Islam is right, because Islam is right. Period. Nah, just joking. ; – { (
As a matter of fact I, (a mere atheist monkey), find rape and murder to be the most disgusting of crimes, and in my godless mind, they are utterly, and totally not part of me.
P.S. I use the term monkey figuratively, because I am a gila monster - a poisonous lizard.
@Gila Guerilla….woa ! wait a minute. i made it clear, it is because of the fear of god, i wont commit crimes. that does not mean, i am a repressed rapists or a killer. all i mean is religion is a good thing for me as it makes me think twice about everything i do as i know god is watching over me. i dont want to even commit a small crime, such a lie. also let’s suppose i am not raping or killing because of relgion, then surely that would mean less murders and rapes nd other crimes around the world right ?
A few weeks ago goldenhawk786, someone suggested that the ethics in islam are based on fear and intimidation, and you replied that this was completely false and then you called her an idiot. Now we see that you are admitting exactly what she suggested . . .
Even if you are not a natural-born rapist, liar, and killer, and that even without god you would show your true nature, the fact of your statement above clearly indicates that you won’t commit crimes because of your fear of god! This is true of many theists, muslims, jews, and christians . . . but what it shows is that your moral sense is based on fear. So if morality (compassion and empathy for others) is another way of describing love, your morality is another way of describing fear - and that is what is so different about us. We (atheists) who do not rape, or plunder, or lie, or cheat, or murder, because we honestly respect and care for other human beings, in other words, we treat others with kindness and fairness because we know what it means to love one another. But you treat others with kindness and fairness out of a fear of god, there is no love in that kind of emptiness and obviously your disgust for others (especially for us primates) is indeed well established. You appear to dispise women who speak their minds, homosexuals, and anyone unmarried who is sexually active, maybe not from personal hatred but from a fear of god. What a sad and self-righteous state of being your life has become . . . and i blame it all on religion, in your case on the depravity of islam that teaches love and peace under the guise of fear and intimidation. Hypocrisy!!!!
Bob
@can zen…. well you can only speak for yourself and not others unless you have been authorised. also what about the athiests that do rape, murder lie or cheat or don’t care for other human beings ? what do you know about whats good or bad? who decides this ? society ? also who says i treat others out of fear of god ? i said i dont do BAD things out of fear of god so stop twisting my words you ape.
Dennis Campbell :
Maybe I’m over-reacting, but of all the many hundreds of posts I’ve reviewed across almost 3 years, this guy scares me.
Dennis
Bravo ! i always suspected that you atheists were scared of me but now this proves it. it should have been obvious from the word go as you guys love this temporary life so much. i know you cling on to this life so dearly buti cant believe i can scare you guys in a virtual room ! just imagine if i was living in your area, i think you may have a heart attack.
also i didn’t know i was public enemy number 1 in this forum. it must have been the fastest rise to the hate ladder ever. banning me would be a honour for me. this is intellectual martyrdom for me. i can wait to show your posts to my friends to show when you guys are beaten fair and square, you resort to cowards tactics like the US government does with their drone strikes. so ban if you want, i shall eagerly await your next move.
Israel, occupying a previously less than resource-rich part of the world, has transformed their territory into a relatively affluent and productive land, by the application of western technology and a largely secular government.
you call yourself educated with comments like that ? israel has not turned any land prodcutive. on the contrary, it constantly lives in fear (like the US government) due to their ILLEGAL occupation and is no where near as secular as you would like to have us beleive. i remember a program called sex in the city was banned in israel last year, because the people AND the government said it was anti-religious. so get your facts rights before making statements like this in the future.
can zen:
Early on he was boasting about how Mohammed’s theology and islam itself was a civilizing force in the 7th century, I thought about this at great length and had to admit that goldenhawk was correct about this because I have read a couple of historical accounts of the times of the prophet. Yet when I express those same ideas in the context of a 21st Century world/culture, he simply ignores my thesis that islam is aimed at a backward tribal culture and that to maintain those same kind of ethical standards in a completely different human world just amounts to a kind of madness. I guess he doesn’t really get it, does he?
what do you mean when you say backward ? please explain. maybe it’s my lack of understanding this word which is leading to confusion. islam is compatible with all ages, past, present and future. now, if you saying that we should accept naked and shameful behavior which is common in the west, then no. it is only the morally bankrupt and ignorant people who say islam is not for today’s society.
can zen:
First of all, thanks for being reasonable goldenhawk, I was ready to lose all hope there. I hope you understood the paragraphs of my post above the one that you quoted here. Have you ever heard of Aayan Hirsi Ali? Have you read her book? (If not, I think it would be helpful if you did.)
By backward, I mean exactly that it is a theology (or a way of life) meant for a people living in an uncivilized society way back in the history of human development. Islam was a fine set of rules, laws, and codes of conduct meant for a people who could not maintain civil relations with those who did not agree with their particular ways of life. The tribal way of life, where protection of the extended family is more important to maintain (it overrules) than the murder, the rape, the maiming, and the freedom of individuals within that family and certainly more important than these same negative behaviours against other tribes (families). Islam, when introduced into such a fierce and savage set of tribal communities is a wonderful and harmonic way of living, if it can have an real impact on those backward people.
As far as “naked and shameful behaviour which is common in the west” is concerned, let me ask you, who do you think you are that you can force or otherwise demand that people live according to your particular standards of “decency?” I agree that you need these kinds of forceful moral standards in place to change a savage people into a civilized people, the history of christianity is really no different from islam and it worked up to a point. But as people develop and improve their moral outlooks (that you can’t decide for everyone what is good and bad, unless the vast majority agree or a basic principle like the Golden Rule is not broken), then there comes a point where you will need to realize that even on the authority of a god, you cannot force tight moral standards upon everyone, if these standards violate other’s by harming them physically, by making them unequal, or by unnecessarily limiting their freedom. The concept of harm is the most important, and anything that causes harm will be seen by anyone with common sense as being immoral. In that context goldenhawk, people walking around naked if they want to does not cause harm to anyone (although we still arrest people who exhibit such behaviour as being indecent). People who are adults having sex of whatever they deem acceptable if they are both consenting (children and animals CANNOT consent) is of no business of anyone else, again as long as no harm is being done.
We do have standards of decency based on minimizing harm, and maximizing equality and freedom for individuals. But you cannot stop people from dressing provocatively or voicing opinions that some do not like. We have our courts of law and our constitutions that figure out the parameters of what is morally and socially acceptable. Please understand goldenhawk, that our ways of living are far more complicated than merely having a code of behaviour that fits every aspect of society differently, even if these codes are “commanded by the authority of a god.” The “god knows best” policy does not work because it treats women differently from men, and it treats behaviour that does no harm to anyone as immoral (or illegal - as homosexuality is in Iran). I don’t think you have yet grasped what freedom means in the context of a complex moral outlook. Your idea that islam offers simple rules that apply to everyone is a case of going backward, even though it may be workable in certain instances (Arabia of 1400 years ago). Sure the codes of islam apply to everyone, but they treat some people differently from other people, and that, at some basic ethical level, is wrong. Naturally, we don’t have our system perfected and some countries are more advanced in development than others. But look at counties like Sweden, Denmark, and Norway . . . 75 to 80 percent of these populations are atheists (they do not believe in a god) and yet these countries are the most highly developed socially (medical care and education paid for by taxes and equal for everyone), people look after one another with more decency and with more compassion and empathy than anywhere else on earth . . . and guess what, people walk around half naked (in summer, that is), they accept homosexuality as natural and normal, they have the lowest crime rates in the world.
perhaps you are unable to see the points I am making? I hope you have the ability to appreciate the world of human relations in a way that does not force people to behave in ways that are restrictive and unnecessarily limiting. Freedom, in the larger context, means freedom from god - and all of that is right there waiting for you to understand, if only you would try.
Bob
@can zen...i beleive this is a comprehensive response for your questions. hope you have time to read this. my friend wrote this article many years ago and i urge you to read it carefully and let me know what you think. i dont want to type it all again, so i have given you the link below. of course, you may disagree with it, but i welcome feedback. take your time and i shall await for you response.
http://www.studying-islam.org/articletext.aspx?id=883
I presume you are serious goldenhawk in claiming that the article by your friend would be an answer to all my questions, but I found nothing in response to what I wrote above.
@can zen...you simply are looking to pick faults with islam. you don’t want to take your time and look at it from another angle. this is what you call tunnel vision. i feel when you begin to read an article, the decision is already been made. for example, if i was accused of murder, and you were a judge dealing with me, i think you would hang me regardless of my evidence.
Gila Guerilla:
Surely if anyone is going to judge a religion, especially if they don’t believe in “God”, then looking at the faults is very important. If I were going to buy a car, I would want to know about its faults. If the faults tell me that the car is not a good one, I’d not buy it. Same for anything, including religion.
here we go again. you guys are supposed to be logical thinkers right ? or maybe its my english that’s not getting through to you. i will try to make it even simple for you. be honest for once and let me ask you a question. if you have a really nice car that works perfectly and give you no problem but the driver (you) is clumsy and reckless, who will people blame, the car or the driver ? why are you guys not understanding this point?
Dennis Campbell:
GH,
If a car does not function well, even with a competent driver, we can junk the car. The same with religion.
Dennis
-
read my question again and answer it truthfully. i am asking if the car IS WORKING perfectly, but it is the driver that is incompetent, who would you blame? the car or the driver ?
Aaron, Administrator:
Your English is fine. You have attempted here to rearrange Gila’s analogy to fit your confirmation bias. You are trying to sell us on Islam (potential new car). We do not already subscribe to Islam (own the car).
By rearranging the analogy, you have avoided having to respond to it; you have deflected responsibility.
It is a simple analogy, and I’d be grateful if you can address it from the perspective of the salesperson attempting to sell a car to a customer. The customer (let’s say it’s his first car) has every right to judge and criticize the car before investing one cent. If he finds it to be a lemon (which would be waste of money, not to mention a possible compromise in safety), he’s justified in stating this as a reason to refuse the car.
As I said, he does not yet own any car.
How should Islam be different?
@Aaron...i agree with you. you have every right to fully examine islam, before you decide to embrace it. in fact, even after accepting it, you are still encouraged to question and research even further. i believe no other religion allows this like islam does. i have nothing to hide and here to answer all your questions as best as i can with honesty, whether you like it or not. i am not here to please you or anyone else.
can zen:
you have claimed on another thread that you reject the theory of evolution as a fiction, but little do you understand that the theory of evolution is one of the foundational facts of science. There is not a shred of doubt about the FACT that life on earth has evolved over millions of years and that the human species evolved from a distinct species of primates over the last couple million of years.
sorry for the late reply, i have been just to much busy to given a lengthy reply, but below i have tried by best.
You think its a fact, but other scientists disagree with you. they say its a load of rubbish, mostly based on assumptions. i have noticed one thing about you guys, and this is that if any scientist that rejects this theory is called a idiot or brainwashed fool or not a “real scientist”. this is sad a pathetic which goes to show, how people would degrade someone who is a expert in a filed simply because he does not go with the “flow”. Darwin himself dedicated a chapter about the difficulty of this theory and modern science, specially micro-biologists have destroyed this evolution myth. why dont you read some of the many articles written by scientists who reject evolution? but no ! you want to read and hear what suits you and th what i meant by tunnel vision. i name you a few scientists who believed in god. they are Kepler, Boyle, Newton, Linnaeus, Euler, Faraday, Babbage, Joule, Pasteur, Kelvin, Maxwell, and Werner von Braun. These men weren’t idiots like you lot, they believed in creation.
people like you, of course, will argue that these great scientists lived before charles Darwin, and weren’t acquainted with the theory of evolution or modern scientific discoveries. While that may be true of some of th scientists, it certainly isn’t true of Werner von Braun (1912 - 1977) and other modern day scientists. i can give you many modern scientists who reject evolution. furthermore, i think your arguments are based on the false premise that the evidence for the theory of evolution is stronger today than it was in the 16th through 20th centuries. In reality, it was easier to believe in the theory of evolution when the fossil record was much less complete, before spontaneous generation of life was disproved, before genetics and molecular biology were understood as well as they are today. i will give you just one quote from many that a respectable scientist has said and this really should suffice to a fair person:
“Nine-tenths of the talk of evolutionists is sheer nonsense, not founded on observation and wholly unsupported by facts. This museum is full of proofs of the utter falsity of their views. In all this great museum, there is not a particle of evidence of the transmutation of species.” (Dr. Etheridge, Paleontologist of the British Museum)
You claim that I have decided beforehand that I will reject islam, that I don’t really give it a chance, and that I have tunnel vision. Well goldenhawk, through this “tunnel” I can actually look at how islam reveals itself in the political, social, and economic structures of various islammic nations. Just to cite a few examples, in Iran (a massively islammic state) we see homosexuals being imprisoned and often murdered for simply being true to their natural character.
there is nothing natural about being gay, this is a sick man made disease, due to his corrupt thoughts and behaviour. but now it not the time to discuss this in detail. sufficient answer is for now is that Allah hates homosexuals, so if Allah hates something, then its hateful in the sight of muslims also. also allah has made a woman for a man. not man for a man. being gay was always frowned upon throught history until now as today’s society has moved further away from God’s teaching. society may even accept incest and paedophiles in the future who knows? anyway, back to the topic, you wont fully understand this as you dont believe in god, just like i may disagree with something even though i dont fully understand it. but it doesn’t make that thing wrong does it?
Same thing goes for women living in tents, they must live their entire lives following the immoral rules and practices of the men who run the country and have all the religious power. I know you cannot imagine the oppression that every female must feel being forced to live under submission to those who claim to know the word of god.
women living in tents? where did you get this ridiculous idea from? YOU and a cant decide whats immoral or moral for others. what you may consider immoral may be right for another person and vice versa. this is one area where a cannot win. you cannot pass judgement of another person (even an athiest) in regard to morality. so dont even go down this road or you will be humiliated. also why dont you ask or bother to read of “western” women who convert to islam? why not ask them if they feel imprisoned by islam? do they feel under pressure or forced to wear hijab (islamic dress)? so they feel forced to listen and obey their husbands? they do it out of choice because of islam and their love for ALLAH. th what you fail to understand this crucial point.
Everywhere I look, through my limited tunnel vision, I see nothing but evil and oppression, I see fear and intimidation ruling the lives of those who must live under the threat of islammic purity.
you may see evil and oppression through your brainwashed mind, but other will disagree (except sheba). you have not given me ONE VALID example of evil and oppression by islam. fear of punishment is a good deterrent in islamic countries as it creates a peaceful society. dont beleive me? well look at the west. crimes are soaring by the day. your not even safe to walk in daylight in certain areas. rapes, mugging, murder, armed robbery etc.. has become the norm in your “civilised” countries. this shows that your laws and nor working. whats worse is you laws allowed criminals and rapists to go free after serving a few years in prison. although 88% percent of these criminals will re-offend and rape another woman and destroy her life,yet you still allow this. i am totally baffled.
I’m surprised goldenhawk that you think all of us here on the ReasonProject are living under a rock, that we don’t see the impact of islam on those countries who adopt it as their official religious doctrine. How can you even imagine, seriiouosly, that we would even consider changing back to that kind of oppressive social structure as offered by your 100% pure theism?
you dont have to convert to iIslam which you see as backward and oppressive whilst ignoring your own oppressive governments. you may continue to live in your immoral society, and pretend to say that there is nothing wrong with it. th your choice but should you decide to carry on the way your are, you will have missed all the goodness islam can give you in this life and in the hereafter. but i dont think this is going to happen due to your lack of vision and prejudice.
all i can say to conclude is that i believe you have not really researched about islam and you takes bits here and there and then make a conclusion from only parts of islam. do you really think that this is the best and reasonable approach to pass judgement? just imagine if you published a book and i just read a few pages of it. then you hear that i have been criticizing your book based on those few pages. tell me what would you say or think about me? this is exactly what i feel when you quote or make claims on islam, when you have NO clue about this pure and peaceful religion.
can zen:
Goldenhawk786, that was a brutal response to my questions. First of all I wanted you to explain why islam is the answer to “our crisis of the intellect” as you put it. Your two replies in a previous post were 1) “islam is fully compatible with science” and 2) “islam is the only pure religion” - yet you obviously do not accept the basic fundamentals of 21st Century science, and the other part about islam’s purity is also confused because there are so many sects of islam and each one holds different beliefs about Allah and the moral guidance offered by Mohammed.
i still stand by my statements that science (i mean true science, not your version!!) and islam are compatible with each other. there is not a SINGLE statement in the holy quran which science can refute. i challenge anyone to prove me wrong about this. also science according to you is not about whats right or wrong, its about observation, understanding etc… these methods, i have no problem with. its your understanding of certain issues which YOU CLAIM to be scientific actually turn out to be wrong and there are many examples of this where scientists have got many so called “facts” wrong. i agree with you that there are many sects in islam, just as there are many scientists who disagree with each other. i dont know whats your issue here is. perhaps you can explain?
But you have made it clear that “Allah hates homosexuals” which to me signals that this is a god who hates the people he apparently created (according to bible), so what human in his right mind would want to worship such a horrific character?
he does not hate his creation. allah does not like it when man rebels against him. being gay is not a creation by allah, but its a creation of man due to his perverse thinking. people are not homosexuals by nature. they become homosexuals because of their environments. for more information on this issue, read the following link below.
http://www.islamic.org.uk/homosex.html
You, goldenhawk are a person I would not want to share this beautiful planet earth with. There is such strong hatred and blindness and ignorance in your statements that it makes you a threat to otherwise peace-loving, compassionate, accepting people around the world.
i am not a threat neither is islam to the peaceful loving people. thats why so many are embracing this peaceful religion including “western thinkers” i hate for the sake of allah and i love for the sake of allah. i am his se and i love my creator. therefore, its natural for one to love his masters wishes and to keep away from the things he dislikes.
Your statements about homosexuals and your erroneous belief that women accept being submissive and powerless because they do it for allah, proves to me beyond a doubt that you do not understand women or those who are different from you at all. Does your wife wear a hijab? Does she only leave the house when you give her permission to do so or only when you accompany her? If so, what kind of life are you forcing her to live? Does it please you that she must submit to the rules of islam which give you such power over her?
i think its YOU that does not understand women. its because of this sick and perverted society you are living in, is the reason why you are blinded by the truth. as i have mentioned before in my previous posts, ask ANY western women who converted to islam. ask her which muslim man is ordering her to wear hijab? you cannot comprehend this can you ? its because you as so accustomed to this devilish environment, that when something which conflicts with your lifestyle, then you immediatly go on the offensive and try to destroy it without carefully reflecting on the matter first. yes my wfie does wear a hijba. she can go out if she wants. i dont accompany her all the time. se does all this not solely because of me, but also because of her strong faith in islam. but i dont want to talk much on this issue unless you remove your brainwashed glasses and drop the “i hate islam” book and then talk to me with an open and fair mind.
Your statements about evolution only go to prove one thing for certain, the theory of evolution is indeed a fact because you goldenhawk are actually dumber than a monkey! (So although you personally have not evolved to the complex state of human cognition and remain locked in some kind of ancient primate mentality, the rest of the biological world has moved on (evolved) and we can understand the true nature of our ancestry.)
i know you are trying to deceive the readers by claiming this, but its far from the truth. when you say “rest of the biological world has moved on”, you dont really believe in that do you? you wish that was true dont you? i bet you wish ALL scientists (particularly micro-biologists) believedd in evolution so you can have a strong case. the truth of the matter is that there are MANY scientists who reject this myth which you want the audience to believe in by your deceptive words. so dont speak on behalf of all the scientists in order to “sex” up your report and give it that credibility which is sorely lacking.
One last thing goldenhawk, and this should make you end your conversation with me immediately. I happen to be gay myself, so perhaps allah (who should’ve known that before) will step in to restrict our cuddly relationship from this point forward or maybe he will strike you dead for speaking to me in the first place.
i can still try to talk you out of being a gay monkey. but the final decision will belong to you. if your gay, then its YOUR fault and not God’s. while you are alive, you have a free choice and free will to decide if you want to be faggot but i have to warn you, the consequences will be devastating in the hereafter.
Gila Guerilla:
He will not change except by reason, and probably not even then. There is an adage: “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” For evil, one can substitute the phrase: bad stuff.
I can see that goldenhawk786‘s ramrod attitude is only a hop, a step and a mind tweak from the terrorists’ mindset. No gh786, I’m not calling you a terrorist. I’m saying that as far as I can tell, inflexible religious thinking is behind most of today’s organised terrorism, and such thinking needs to be challenged. After all; this is supposed to be a Reason Project.
so far i see no convincing proofs or reasonable arguments that you guys have given me to reject my religion. all i have been given are mis-quotes, out of context statements and some even blatant lies ! you call this a reason project forum? this is nothing more than anti-islamic bigots roaming in here. despite what you think, i a open minded, reasonable and willing to listen. but i wont listen if people start insulting and this is what has been going on here in different threads. dont spin all this on me and make me the bad guy. you should read you fellow monkeys posts on what they have said about me, you seem ok and i have not swore or insulted you have i? but i do reserve the right to retaliate accordingly. this is my god given right.
eudemonia:
GH-What would it take to falsify your religious beliefs?
Forgive me if this has already been mentioned here or elsewhere.
@eudemonia...very simple really. all you have to do to me is PROVE to me Islam is wrong. by wrong i mean many things. its evil, its backward, its unscientific, it does not has the solutions for mankind, its self contradictory, its out of date. if you can do all that by evidence, not by personal opinions, then i am willing to listen as i DO have an open mind.
I already posted several links concerning Islam and science, showing how Islams explanations are wrong and not scientifically based.
and i have posted many posts stating islam and true science are in perfect harmony with each other. so how does you case have better credibility than mine?
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